Discriminatory admissions process (Re: OOP: Sorting hat's song)

[Milz]

No: HPFGUIDX 64296

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" 
<bard7696 at a...> wrote:
> 
> > Darrin wrote in response to Tim in message #63694:
> > >Assuming Snape is a Slytherin, there is one, apparently. But, 
the 
> > >current crop of Slyths don't have anyone who is ready to jump 
> > >sides... so far.
> > >
> > >And as I said in another post, I'd like to see what happens the 
> > first 
> > >time a Slyth shows up for D.A. class. I hope there aren't knee-
jerk 
> > >cries of "discrimination!" and "unfair!" when Harry and the rest 
are 
> > >suspicious of that kid. 
> 
> Milz:
> 
> > Of course Harry will be suspicious of that child, because Harry 
has 
> > been conditioned like everyone else in the UK Wizarding world 
> > that "all dark wizards came were in  Slytherin". The House system 
> > encouraged and perpetuated these stereotypes. In effect it 
> > contributes to a "self-fulfilling prophecy". The members of 
Slytherin 
> > are  expected to be cunning and wiley, so they are.
> > 
> 
> Darrin:
> 
> But as I say continually, with the exception of Snape, who Harry 
doesn't tr=
> ust 
> (perhaps unfairly, but Snape doesn't do a lot to engender trust, 
with Harry=
>  
> either) Harry has not encountered one Slytherin who he would 
consider to be=
>  
> trustworthy enough to share the secrets of the D.A. class.
> 
> Perhaps he will, but he has a responsibility to the other students 
in the g=
> roup, 
> and yes, to the fight against V-Mort, to make sure that person is 
trustwort=
> hy.
> 
> The group has already been betrayed by a Ravenclaw who wasn't so 
much a 
> V-Mort sympathizer, but too scared to stand against him. (Which, in 
the end=
> , 
> makes her a V-Mort sypmathizer by default.). Considering the long 
history o=
> f 
> V-Mort sympathizers being Slytherin, Harry would be irresponsible 
to his 
> cause to automatically welcome a Slytherin.
> 

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I think Harry should be open 
to a "Good" Slytherin. Should he be cautious? Yes. But a Slytherin 
kid shouldn't be automatically turned away because of the Slytherin 
label.

Marietta was accepted because  she's Cho's friend and I think because 
she is a Ravenclaw. In retrospect, that wasn't a good idea.

> 
> > 
> > Equally Harry would be foolish to allow his prejudices and other 
pre-
> > conceived ideas blind him in his decision-making. We know that 
> > Malfoy's gang (Parkinson, Goyle, Crabb, and at times, Millicent 
> > Bulstrode) are awful bullies with prejudices. But we don't know 
at 
> > this time if there are any Slytherins who are loyal to 
Dumbledore. 
> 
> Put it this way. (friendly sarcasm coming) :) 
> 
> Do you believe all Snape had to do was show up on D-Dore's doorstep 
and 
> say, "Headmaster, I was a D.E., but I don't want to be any longer. 
Let me s=
> py 
> for you" and D-Dore said, "Severus, that's wonderful. Here's some 
secrets t=
> hat 
> are vital and could be damaging to our cause."
> 
> (end friendly sarcasm)
> 
> Of course not. Snape had to prove himself (and I'm dying to know 
how.)
> 

Purely speculative of me...But I think Snape was the one who told 
Dumbledore about the plot against the Potters. 

> Whichever Slyth wants to join, and I agree that is the next logical 
step in=
>  the 
> reuniting of the houses, that kid will have to do something to 
convince Har=
> ry.  
> Now, if D-Dore went to Harry and said, "this kid is OK," that would 
carry a=
>  lot of 
> weight, but Harry and the others would still need to be convinced 
for 
> themselves. 
>

I agree with you there too.
 
> I'm not sure if it's stereotypical when so many of the V-Mort 
sympathizers =
> and 
> their kids are Slyths. Even if we get one (or a few) so-
called "good" Slyth=
> s, 
> they will still be the exception to the rule.
>

Sirius has said that Voldemort bullied and intimidated some people 
into supporting him. If that's the case, I would say that some people 
weren't as supportive as Voldemort wanted.

I think it's in SS/PS, Hagrid tells Harry that some of Voldemort's 
followers claimed they were enchanted in order to have charges 
dropped. In light of what happened to Barty Crouch and Bertha Jorkins 
and what Sirius said, were some of these people truthful?

> Again, it's all fine to discuss in ethics class, but there's a war 
on, and =
> 
> sometimes you have to err on the side of caution.
>  
> 
> > >As for the question of Snape being the Good Slytherin. I'm not 
sure 
> > >what the hell Snape is (part of what makes him interesting.)
> > >
> > >As I've said before, there are still enough signs out there that 
> > >would make it possible for Snape to betray Dumbledore. For now, 
he 
> > >seems on the right side.
> 
> Milz:
>  
> > Don't pass out in shock, Darrin, but I agree with you here
.ummm 
> > Darrin? Darrin
wake up
.err, someone get the smelling salts 
please. 
> > (lol) :-)
> > 
> 
> Me:
> 
> Um, which part, that Snape is good, or that Snape could still be 
bad? Eithe=
> r 
> way, it's a start. ;)
> 

That at this point, Snape's loyality or lack there of is still up in 
the air. Like Harry, I find it strange that he referes to Voldemort 
as "The Dark Lord" and admonishes Harry for using the "V" word.

> 
> Milz: 
> > 
> > On the contrary, I don't mind going through the all the songs 
line by 
> > line. IIRC, around the time GoF was released, Rowling said in an 
> > interview the Hat will play a significant role. I've looked at 
the 
> > two other Hat songs(SS/PS, GoF).  The Hat gives more information 
> > every time it sings. In SS/PS, it gave a nice short song, briefly 
> > introducing the House system. The next time in GoF, the Hat gives 
> > more detail about the Founders, their philosophies and how the 
Hat 
> > came into being. In OoP, the Hat gives more information about the 
> > Founders' philosophy and chronicles the schism.  
> > 
> > Furthermore, I think the Hat parallels Dumbledore's actions 
> > concerning Harry. The previous two songs shields the students by 
> > giving them "only enough information". In the most recent song, 
the 
> > Hat levels with them just as Dumbledore eventually does with 
Harry.
>  
> 
> Me:
> 
> OK, I  do agree with this. It is possible that the Hat, for the 
first time,=
>  is "telling it 
> like it is" which would make the OoP version more valuable than the 
others.=
>  I 
> still don't know about picking it apart line by line when, to 
engage in a b=
> it of 
> meta, JKR had to juggle rhyming with picking the most meaningful 
words.
> 
> I will say this, though. How'd you like to have been a Hufflepuff 
and been =
> told 
> for four years that you were picked because you were a hard worker, 
and you=
>  
> find out you were basically the ones picked last for dodgeball? 
That  would=
>  
> suck.
>

You have a point. On the other hand, you can look at it that the 
Hufflepuff House is the most liberal one. Furthermore, Harry was able 
to override the Sorting Hat right? If the Sorting Hat can read their 
minds and get to know them well enough to place them into a House, 
what if a child doesn't have any prejudices? You know, has the 
philosophy of Hufflepuff: treat all people the same. That child, if a 
pure-blood, wouldn't quite fit into Slytherin and may not completely 
fit into the other Houses either. The child could be intelligent but 
doesn't want to be around a bunch of other smart kids, so would the 
Hat still place the child there? If you go by what Harry did and by 
what Dumbledore said, I don't think so. Speaking from my own 
experience, I was thrown into the "talented and gifted" program when 
I was in 3rd grade. I couldn't STAND the other kids there. They 
talked about "boring" adult things like art exhibits and classical 
music. During recess, none of them would play: they just sat near the 
door and talked. I went to one child's house for a birthday party: no 
balloons, no hats, no cool party favors, no "kids-style" cake or 
food. We had little finger foods I now see at cocktail parties. The 
cake was this one layer chocolate thing (which I would have loved 
now) but hated then. The party game was cards.   
 
> And I did like how the euphemisms "ambition and cunning" have been 
> replaced by pureblood. 
> 

That was something I wondered about too. The Hat does a complete turn-
about in the OoP song. But then, it may be that the Hat has been 
trying to protect the students in previous years.

> <snip my racial stuff>
> 
> > Way back when HPFGU had just returned to YahooGroups from 
> > Egroups.com, we discussed a minor difference between the UK 
edition 
> > and US edition of SS/PS. Apparently, the US edition described 
Dean 
> > Thomas as a "tall black boy". This was not included in the UK 
book. 
> > Most of us wondered why Scholastic (or Rowling or both) beleived 
it 
> > necessary to include that in the US edition, but not the UK book. 
> > IIRC, someone wrote that Rowling, initially, didn't want to 
assign 
> > racial characteristics to her characters, but eventually did.
> 
> I might have caught a later rehashing of that same discussion, and 
I have 
> maintained that JKR has had countless editions to do something. And 
> regardless, we are given obvious minorities such as Cho and the 
Patil girls=
> , 
> and still Slyth, so far, is white bread personified.
>

I guess we'll chalk this up to an opinion based upon personal 
experience. I've had bad personal experiences with a wide variety of 
people. 
  
>  
> > By all accounts, Rowling abhors bigotry. Yes, no Slytherin is 
given a 
> > racial or ethnic group designation---to date. Perhaps this is 
done on 
> > purpose. Rowling knows her audience includes children. Why should 
she 
> > risk assigning a racial quality to a Slytherin character knowing 
that 
> > a young reader might internalize that and apply it in the real 
world? 
> > I think Rowling is doing the socially responsible thing by 
keeping 
> > her Slytherin characters "grey" and allowing the reader to form 
> > his/her own vision of the ethnic/racial makeup of the Slytherin 
> > students.
> 
> 
> That is entirely plausible, but so long as we're debating her 
motives, I th=
> ink 
> putting at least one minority in the group, just to establish that 
we're no=
> t talking 
> about real-world racism here, would be better. I think, so long as 
Aryan Dr=
> aco 
> and SS Crabbe and Goyle are around, the minority kid in the 
background 
> won't become the symbol of Slyth.
>

I see your point, but I wouldn't do it if I were Rowling, unless she 
puts a number of different ethnicities into Slytherin. It's a 
horrible thing, but face it, there are still prejudices that exist in 
society today. We don't know what a child is hearing from the adults 
in the household saying about a particular group. I'd like to think 
that racial slurs or stereotypes aren't being perpetuated within the 
family environment, but I look at the world and can see it's not 
necessarily so.:(
 
> Milz: 
> > 
> > On the other hand,  the term "muggle-lover" is a direct 
correlation 
> > to the "Jew-lover" epithet of  NAZI Germany. 
> <snip Milz' racial stuff>
> 
> 
> And all, with the exception of V-Mort's attempt to kill Harry, have 
some ki=
> nd of 
> racial or religious bigotry behind them.  I think I see what you're 
doing, =
> trying 
> to mitigate the link I've made to bigotry against blacks and 
Latinos by poi=
> nting 
> out other links, but regardless of form, we're still talking about 
everythi=
> ng to do 
> with the Culture of V-Mort, which has a very heavy influence on 
modern 
> Slytherin Culture, having racist images and practices.
> 
> Couple that with the pureblood doctrine in canon and the underlying 
> whitebread notion, I still believe JKR is sending us a message. The 
Slyth 
> creed is a hateful creed. 
> 

Yes, of course the Slytherin creed is hateful. But I maintain it 
follows the same hateful creed that has, unfortunately, resounded 
through the course of human history. Looking objectively at the 
history of the human race. Every group has been a victim at one time 
or other and every group has been the victimizer at one time or the 
other. That doesn't justify their actions or inactions, but it's 
happened. 

And there's also intra-ethnic/racial discrimination. A fascinating 
book, imo, that deals with it in the Black community is "Our Kind of 
People" by Graham.

> If the houses are truly "unitable" then at some point, Salazar (or 
his esse=
> nce) 
> needs to come back and fix what he hath wrought with his disdain 
for muggle=
> -
> borns. I have no problems believing that Riddle (and others before 
him, mos=
> t 
> likely, although not with the same success rate) have twisted his 
beliefs m=
> uch 
> the same way the Nazis twisted Nietzsche, but this is magic, and 
Salazar 
> might still be able to do something about it.
> 
> Or... Salazar is a Genocidal Racist Madman Bastard Twisted Old 
Loony and 
> approves...
>

Rowling has said that once you're dead in the Potterverse, you don't 
come back. I don't really see Slytherin coming back to reverse 
himself, but more of the Slytherin children rejecting these ideas. 

> 
> > >My guess is that the long-awaited "good Slytherin kid" that has 
been 
> > >discussed here is going to be the first kid to openly disagree 
with 
> > >all that garbage and stand up to Draco's creed.
> > 
> > >But like I said in those countless good Slyth kid discussions, 
if 
> > >he's not in canon, he doesn't exist. When JKR writes him, then 
he 
> > >exists. Right now, the Slyths follow the Creed of Purelbood and 
I 
> > >don't see where any of them have diverted from that path.... yet.
> > 
> > Very true, if it isn't part of the cannon, like the OoP Sorting 
Hat 
> > song, then it doesn't exist.
> 
> Cheap shot! Dirty pool! :)
> 
> Darrin
> -- If Milz and I can be friendly, then Salazar and Godric can 
surely make i=
> t up.

Aww...Darrin, you know I love you;-) I'm actually happy you didn't 
let me slide with my post. It's fun to debate. I don't like it when 
every other post is 

"Did you like that part of the book"
Response 1: "Yeah, it was great"
Response 2: "Loved it"
Response 3: "Terrific"
Response 4: "After the third time I read it I loved it more!"
Response 5: "Hey you guys loved it too? Guess what? So did I"
Blah blah blah ad nauseum.

That's when the group gets boring, imo.

~Milz