OOP: James( was:Two-way Mirror and other frustrations)

[fitzchivalryhk]

No: HPFGUIDX 64658

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" 
<valkyrievixen at y...> wrote:
> Cheers Fitz this has become a great debate! :-D

Yes it has :) I'm glad you're enjoying it.

> In reply I have to point out that my statement was that James 
earned 
> a degree of respect by *directing his spite* at someone who hated 
him 
> and others for no particular reason, rather than at someone of 
> obviously admirable character without prejudice such as Lily.

I want to make several points concerning the statement above:

1. Nowhere in the book does it suggest James hated ONLY Snape, and 
hated him ONLY because he was involved in Dark Arts (which you equate 
to evilness). In fact, Sirius said it was a hate at first-sight 
thing. I doubted that you can tell a person is "evil" at first-sight.

2. This point is tightly tied to (1). Other posters have repeatedly 
pointed out that according to Lily, James "hexed anyone who annoyed 
him". And this is a main argument against your suggestion that "his 
(Jame's) spite was directed at someones choice to hate". Surely, if 
James only hexed those who are mouthing words like "mudblood", Lily 
would have noticed. I cannot find any of your response to this main 
argument about the "James hated Snape mainly for his bigotry" theory.

3. Should a person "earn" respect because he hated another person? I 
would say a person should earn respect because he had done something 
good, or that he had stopped something bad from happening. But for 
hating someone? I do not think so.

4. Is it commendable when the hatred leads to bullying of the hated 
party?

> With this I strongly disagree. Snape did manage a dangerous attack 
on 
> James himself, as I recall. 

Whether Snape was indeed weaker than James, and whether Snape could 
make dangerous attack did not necessarily matter here, because we are 
talking about Jame's perception of Snape, not the fact whether Snape 
was weaker. Would you call someone "Snivellus" if you consider him 
stronger than yourself, or equal to yourself?

> I stand by my conviction, that James was 
> not stooping to a level of disliking Snape for things out of his 
> control such as his greasy hair.  

Please refer back to point (2) above for the argument against your 
point.

>But for reasons of his character as 
> a Dark Wizard who "snivels" to gain favour.

Where is the evidence that Snape "snivels" to gain favour? Snivels, 
maybe, it must be a very tough person to not cry when bullied like 
this, but gaining favour? I can't find anything in the book that 
suggest Snape doing that.

> And finally I agree entirely with Harry that the pain of being in 
> that situation is not justified in any of these statements. They 
are 
> merely in defense of James as a person who made a stupid mistake.
> I will not easily back down from the debate that in even this 
> particular scene James' Heart was good and warm.

That's what I totally disagree with, I do not think James' heart was 
good and warm in this scene at all. If he is that "good and warm" he 
should see how Snape was suffering, and understand what a horrible 
thing it is to publicly humiliate and assault anyone like that. Even 
if it is as you say that James did it to impress a girl, does it mean 
he had the license to hurt someone so badly, and still claim that he 
was "warm and good" at that time? I think his heart was cold and 
cruel at this scene. This, does not mean James was cold and cruel all 
through his life though.

This post is getting really long :) I will leave the other points in 
a later post.

Cheers, great debate and all.

Fitz