[HPforGrownups] Re: OOP: (Sirius) A person is more than the worst thing they have done

[Wendy St John]

No: HPFGUIDX 64725



Yesterday, I (Wendy) wrote: 

> Snape's worst memory in the Pensieve indicates that Sirius and 
>James both looked down on Peter as early as their 5th year at Hogwarts. 
><snip> In any case, I think it's pretty clear that they thought Peter was
pretty useless. Which 
>causes me to  wonder why they would ever think of using him as the Secret
Keeper 
>at all - even as a bluff, it seems pretty stupid to use someone so wholly 
>without  talent (as they appear to have thought him). I really do wonder 
>what was going on . . . was it just a complete error of judgement on the 
>part of Sirius and James (and Lily, for going along with it, as well)? Did 
>they think it was so clever they forgot to notice that they were 
>basically giving their LIVES over to a guy they thought was a loser (and
had
>apparently treated like one, on at least one occasion)?"

Catherine responded:

>"I'm not sure I agree with this analysis, and would go more with what 
>Jenny has already said.  Yes, in Snape's Worst Memory, Sirius does 
>tease Pettigrew - but really, that just struck me as typical 15 yr 
>old teasing.  What was more telling for me was the way they treated 
>Pettigrew generally.  Yes, he wasn't as talented as the rest of 
>them, but he *was* their friend - to the extent that James and 
>Sirius helped him become an animagus.  It would probably have been 
>much easier to just exclude him from their monthly exploits.  

Now me (Wendy) again:

Hmmnh. My turn to disagree <g>. It didn't strike me as typical 15 year old
teasing. Well, maybe it does seem typical - but typical of something that
would be done by really arrogant, bratty, unlikeable kids. For me, the way
they treated Peter in the Pensieve scene was disgusting - almost worse than
James' treatment of Snape because Peter was supposed to be their *friend.*
I didn't go back and quote last time, but I  will now (all from Chapter 28,
Snape's Worst Memory):

" 'How thick are you, Wormtail?' said James impatiently. 'You run round
with a werewolf once a month - ' "

"James was still playing with the Snitch . . . . Wormtail was watching him
with his mouth open. Every time James made a particularly difficult catch,
Wormtail gasped and applauded. After five minutes of this, Harry wondered
why James didn't tell Wormtail to get a grip on himself, but James seemed
to be enjoying the attention."

" 'Put that away, will you?' said Sirius finally . . . 'Before Wormtail
wets himself from excitement.' "

I suppose it's a matter of interpretation whether or not these sorts of
things are typical of teenagers to say to one another. I don't really
recall having this sorts of discussions with my friends. (And, for the
record, I never did anything *remotely* as offensive as what James did to
Snape, and I consider myself to have been a bit of a terror as a teenager.
I was wild, but not deliberately cruel. People here keep saying that's
normal 15-year-old behaviour, but in my experience it's NOT). Of course,
the other thing I noticed in reading this section again is that Peter
really did seem to be useless, pathetic and really, really annoying. If
James and Sirius didn't realise this about him, well, what's up with
that??? Why be friends with him when they seemed to entirely disrespect him?

I think there may be an answer to this (speculative, of course). Yes, I
suppose it is possible to say that Peter was their friend (although with
friends like that, who needs enemies?). They did help him become an
animagus and included him in their exploits, but I think it might very
likely have been far more difficult to *exclude* him than to include him.
Someone else here on the list (don't remember who, sorry) made the point
that if they were indeed housemates, they would have been sharing a dorm
room. And, I think this poster hit the nail on the head by pointing out
that, if they were sharing a room, it might have been difficult indeed to
explain to Peter why three of them were away for a couple of nights each
month. I don't know the reason they considered him a friend (I don't think
we have enough canon yet to determine it), but as I said in my first post,
something doesn't add up here for me. They didn't seem to have much respect
for him (perhaps rightly so), and they don't appear to have treated him
well.

Catherine again:

>furthermore, look at one of the other things Sirius says in the 
>Shrieking Shack scene:

>"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black.  "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY 
>YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"

>That line always struck me - it seemed clear that they *did* trust 
>Pettigrew, and *did* expect him to be overlooked by Voldemort - and 
>it also shows the level of friendship Sirius at least believed 
>existed.  And Sirius seems truly bewildered as to why Pettigrew 
>behaved in such a way.

Wendy (me) again:

You make an excellent point here, Catherine. Sirius does seem truly
bewildered. I hadn't thought about this scene before in the context of the
current discussion, and it certainly does sound as though Sirius trusted
Peter, thought of him as a true friend (instead of just a pathetic lackey
that they kept around because he idolized them). Although your comment that
they expected Voldemort to overlook him makes me think that you do agree
that they thought Peter talentless and useless, otherwise why would they
assume he'd be overlooked by Voldie? (Do you agree?). Looking at this scene
from PoA, it does make sense that they would have suggested Peter to be the
alternate Secret Keeper. And, for me, looking at the Pensieve scene in OoP
it absolutely does NOT make sense that they would. So, is it just a matter
of the growing up that happened after 5th year? Is it possible that James
and Sirius were really so blind as to not notice just how pathetic their
"friend" Peter was, or did Peter change his behaviour and become less of a
mascot and more of a true member of the group? It's hard to say. (Well,
hard for us to say. JKR, sadistic thing that she is, could probably say
plenty about it. But she won't. Not yet, anyway <G>).

Catherine:

>So, yes, I do think they believed the bluff to be fool proof.  
>Sirius was putting himself at great risk by *not* being the secret 
>keeper.  I don't think this was arrogance, but a false belief in 
>Pettigrew."

Now me (Wendy) again:

You may be right here - and I still say that if they did, in fact, have
such a strong belief in Peter's friendship, then the dynamic between MMWP
must have shifted *dramatically* after 5th year. Otherwise, James and
Sirius were suffering from an overload of arrogance or stupidity or 
*something* which would have allowed them to put their faith in someone of
whom they appear to have thought so little just a few years earlier.

:-)

Wendy