OOP: Harry, Voldemort, Prophecy, etc. was:Thoughts and more thoughts

[Diana]

No: HPFGUIDX 64837

I just had to respond to Aesha's post because she had a lot of 
thought-out opinions that I wanted to respond to.  

Aesha Williams wrote: 
>> <snip> I thought it was selfish for him to think that that he 
should have been Prefect over Ron- for someone who hasn't gotten a 
lot of attention as a growing boy, he sure thinks he deserves it now 
(and yes, he does deserve thanks for his actions against Voldemort). 
Yes, he's a teenager, and been through a lot, but they're all trying 
to help him, and he couldn't help but bite their heads off quite a 
bit.<< 

Now me:
I was not surprised that Harry was upset that Ron got the Prefect's 
badge.  Harry would look forward to *some* recognition that he had 
done some amazingly brave things, and would be predictably 
disappointed when he didn't get it.  At the point the badges had 
come, Harry had just recently discovered that the "Daily Prophet" 
had been making snide and negative comments about him all summer; no 
one outside of the usual group, including the Minister of Magic 
himself believed Harry's story; felt excluded from Ron and 
Hermione's time together over the summer; had spent a very hellish 
month with the Dursleys and been kept in the dark as to *why* no one 
was telling him anything; been attacked and nearly had his soul 
sucked out by dementers; felt completely ignored by Dumbledore; and 
been suffering from teen-age-itis, to boot.  
I do think Dumbledore appointed Ron prefect because, not only did 
Ron deserve it, but there was a chance Ron might offer minor 
*protection* to Harry in the coming year.  Besides, Harry DID have 
enough going already on without being prefect as well.

Aesha wrote:
> 1. Lots of people have said they think the DA group should 
continue and I agree-  <snip> Harry was a good teacher (and yes, it 
made me too think perhaps he's being groomed for the teaching 
position, though I love the Aurors), but he was just teaching the 
others what he knows already (duh), which isn't much compared to the 
abundance of imformation that is presumably out there. So a more 
knowledgeable wizard is needed (IMO, it's Lupin, but I don't know if 
he'll be added back to the faculty for next year).<< 

Now me:
To me, Harry should become a Hogwarts teacher *if*, as JKR loves to 
point out, he survives after his battle with Voldemort.  The Defense 
Against the Dark Arts teacher, to be exact.  Not only is he an 
excellent teacher (the evidence is in the book, so I don't need to 
argue it, do I?), but he will have survived the worst after 
defeating Voledmort and might actually end up overqualified in the 
subject.  ;)  And of course, he would eventually become Headmaster 
of Hogwarts - the perfect end to the epiloque in Book 7, if I had my 
way.  He may be an Auror first, but I just don't see that job as 
being as important to him as helping train future generations of 
wizards.  

Aesha pondered what would happen to Kreacher, now that Sirius was 
dead: 

Now me:
I'd guess that Kreacher may get his wish to have his head cut off 
and mounted on the wall with his ancestors.  That'd be my *reward* 
for Kreacher...and it's what he really wants, isn't it?  
  
Aesha wrote: 
> 8. I'm curious about Dumbledore's relationship with the Evans 
clan. Obviously there's something more, as has been pointed out by 
them being on a first name basis. Even saying "Remember my last, 
Petunia Dursley!" would have been a little more formal. And I don't 
think that bit about her having sealed the charm by accepting Harry 
was all. Remember my last what? Words to you? Letter? Hmmm. Also, 
with Dumbledore saying that he didn't want LV to see anything more 
than a headmaster/student relationship between he (DD) and Harry, I 
was just waiting for him to say they were related. And I still 
believe there's more... Dumbledore feels a special relationship with 
Harry, a special kind of affection, and there's a reason for it.<<

Now me:
I wouldn't rule out a blood relation between Dumbledore and Harry, 
but I don't think just being related to Harry would make Dumbledore 
care for Harry as much as he does.  Dumbledore cares for Harry 
because of his actions, heroic and otherwise, - the actions 
Dumbledore has witnessed or heard about for the last five years.  
Dumbledore knows Harry is a very good person who's shouldered 
tremendous burdens and survived all of them, intact and without a 
huge ego.  
As for the Howler, I got the impression that by "remember my last, 
Petunia", Dumbledore was referring specifically to the last letter 
he wrote to Petunia, which was the letter left in Harry's grasp on 
the doorstep, explaining about how Harry *had* to be taken in by his 
mother's sister or he would likely be hunted down and murdered by 
Lord Voldemort.  Petunia did it most unwillingly I would imagine, 
but did take him because she must have felt that her death would be 
on his hands if she did not.  Petunia is a horrible person, but she 
is not a murderer, not even an indirect murder because of standing 
by and doing nothing.  

Aesha wrote:
> 9. Someone said that if Sirius had simply fell on the dias 
[instead of through the veil] he would not have died. I'm okay if 
this is an assumption, but I'm going to be a little 
> LOON-y about this (I hope this point is LOON worthy). It didn't 
say that that was the cause of death (falling through the veil), so 
I'm going to assume that we didn't see what Bella did to Sirius. No, 
we didn't hear Avada Kedavra or see a flash of green light at that 
time, but we can't know for sure that the veil was the cause of 
death. 

Now me:
There will probably be debate about how Sirius died for the rest of 
time, but to add my two-cents into the mix...I believe Sirius died 
BECAUSE he fell through the veil in the archway.  If you think about 
the rooms in the Department of Mysteries, you'll see that the brain 
room represented the mystery of human thought, perhaps even the 
mystery of the human brain itself.  The room with the time turner 
and the hatching and re-hatching bird was obviously the mystery of 
time.  The planet room (which Ginny, Ron and Luna told Harry about) 
was about the mystery of the universe.  The door they couldn't open 
and that melted Harry's knife blade was the door to the mystery of 
heart (a.k.a. love, compassion, caring, kindness,etc.).  As 
Dumbledore tells Harry later, that room is always kept locked 
because love (a.k.a. heart,et al) is the most dangerous and powerful 
of all mysteries.  Which brings me to the room with the archway, 
which was about they mystery of death.  The archway was the physical 
manifestation of the concept/idea/entrance/etc. of death.  Sirius 
falling though the veil meant that Sirius left this world and 
entered the other side, a.k.a. death.  If he'd not fallen through 
the archway, he might have been injured by Bellatrix's spell, but he 
would not have died.  

Aesha wrote: 
> 13. Now here I'm very sure I'm in the vast minority (I'm thinking 
perhaps 10 people out of our 8300 may think this as well). The 
relationship between Sirius and Harry has always bothered me, even 
last year, and definately this year (OoP). They've known one another 
less than two years, and yet Harry is willing to listen almost 
exclusively to what Sirius has to say. He won't go to Dumbledore, he 
won't ask anyone else for advice, and I'm not sure I understand why. 
He's known Dumbledore, the Weasleys, even Lupin longer and better... 
Why go exclusively to Sirius for advice and counsel? I'm thinking 
this way- if I was told I had a sister I never knew I had, and 
someone introduced us, I wouldn't instantly love them just because 
someone said she was my sister. Yet this is how I think it happened 
with Sirius and Harry. Why does he love Sirius any more than Lupin, 
or Molly, or Dumbledore? He's known those three longer; they too 
have his best interests at heart; Molly even thinks of him as her 
own son. Is it just because Sirius has the title godfather, or 
because he's one of Harry's father's best friends? <<<<

Now me:
I read this point on your post and was nodding along with you.  
Although, I must say that I can understand *why* Harry attached 
himself to Sirius so quickly.  Harry was so lonely for so long for a 
caring parent, that he jumped at the chance to let Sirius be the 
one.  Why didn't he select Molly? Or Lupin? or Dumbledore?  Because 
none of those others specifically set themselves up for and 
willingly requested the job.  Harry knows Mrs. Weasley cares for him 
and he has occasionally regarded her as close to a mother in his 
life, but Mrs. Weasley didn't grow up with his parents like Sirius 
did.  And Mrs. Weasley has seven children to care for, unlike 
Sirius, who is alone and an outcast like Harry feels many times.  
Some of Sirius's appeal to Harry may be that Harry feels Sirius 
needs Harry as much as Harry needs Sirius.  As for Lupin, if you re-
read PoA and GoF, you'll see that Lupin purposely keeps his 
emotional distance from Harry.  This is because of Lupin being a 
werewolf, to be blunt.  Lupin would kill himself if he ever bit, or 
god forbid, killed Harry, while he was a werewolf.  Since Lupin may 
be not be getting that potion anymore from Snape, or at the least, 
not regularly, Lupin would be of no use (and quite a danger) to 
Harry at least three or four days every month.  Now, about 
Dumbledore being in Sirius's position with Harry - that may come 
about now that Sirius is gone and Dumbledore has told Harry that he 
cares for him and is proud of him like a doting grandparent would be 
of their favorite grandchild.  Dumbledore admitting all those things 
to Harry told me that he was now willing to take over the role of 
surrogate parent for Harry because of Sirius's death.  He didn't 
want the job before because, as he explains at the end of OOP, he 
was afraid of caring for Harry more than he should, which might have 
resulted in Harry getting killed and the wizarding world losing it's 
only chance to defeat Voldemort.  As for the other wizards and 
witches in Harry's life, no one else stepped up to the job and 
wanted to take it on - other than Hagrid, who Harry regards as more 
of a friend than a parental figure, because Harry spends a great 
deal of all 5 books trying to persuade Hagrid to not make such 
foolish and dangerous choices in pets and actions.  Harry needs 
someone who is a responsible person as a parental figure, and while 
Hagrid is definitely lovable and kind and good-hearted, he's not 
exactly responsible when it comes to certain subjects.  

Aesha wrote:
>>I was touched when Harry was part of Mrs. Weasley's Woes. I think 
part of what bothered me so much about the H/S relationship in this 
book is that Sirius didn't seem to have Harry's best interests at 
heart for quite a bit of the book- he was reckless, a little 
selfish, and so that bothers me. Perhaps, when I can articulate my 
thoughts and feelings on this matter a little more clearly, I will 
post about it. Hehe.<< 

Now me:
I agree.  I think Molly hit the nail on the head when she accused 
Sirius of forgetting that Harry wasn't James sometimes.  I think 
Sirius occasionally forgot that Harry wasn't like James - not in the 
way Sirius enjoyed James's company.  Sirius's reckless behavior and 
constant comments about how fun it was to take risks worried Harry a 
great deal because Harry desparately did not want to lose Sirius.  
But Sirius never acknowledged to Harry that he respected Harry's 
fears of losing his godfather and would try to keep that from 
happening simply because Harry needed him to be around.  
As for Mrs. Weasley's boggart encounter and Harry's appearance 
amongst her family members, it's more than clear that Mrs. Weasley 
DOES regard Harry as her child in all the ways that counts, 
including the fact that she cares for more for Harry's life than her 
own, just as she cares for her children's lives more than her own, 
even that git Percy's.  It was extremely touching, and as a mom I 
know exactly how Molly felt while battling that boggart.   
  
Aesha wrote: 
> 15.  Neville vs. Harry as the one to fulfill the prophecy: 
Something tells me there's still more to this- a reason Voldemort 
would go for Harry, or a reason that although the propechy seemed to 
fit them both, there was something that certified that it was Harry 
it spoke of. Why would Dumbledore be so worried that he'd offer to 
be the Potters' *personal* secret-keeper, instead of the 
Longbottoms'? Unless, assuming you can be the secret keeper for two 
people at once, he'd offered to do both. I don't know, it's just 
fishy- I still think that there's more there.

Now me:
My husband and I have discussed this a length and it's been 
interesting reading others' opinions on this as well.  When 
Dumbledore points out to Harry that Voldemort chose to attack Harry, 
whose one-quarter muggle-born (a mudblood in Voldemort's eyes), over 
a pure-blood candidate, then it clinches it for me that Harry *is* 
the one mentioned in the prophecy.  Dumbledore tells Harry that 
Neville fit the criteria of the prophecy as far as his birthdate and 
his parent's thrice thwarting Voldemort, but what if Harry was 
always destined to be the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark 
Lord" and Neville's meeting the criteria was just a coincidence?  
Voldemort being a mudblood and yet the most powerful wizard ever 
known (besides Dumbledore), would make Voldemort see Harry as a real 
threat because Voldemort would see Harry as having the same kind of 
background and potential as himself.  After all, Voldemort noticed 
the similarities between himself and Harry in CoS, and that was when 
Voldemort was only 16 (well his memory was 16).  

Aesha wrote: 
> 16. The prophecy. It was marked Lord Voldemort and (?) Harry 
Potter. Not Neville. Why? Unless the name was hidden somewhere in 
those ellipses, they shouldn't have known who it was to put a second 
name on it, unless they put HP's name on there after LV's demise- 
but then they wouldn't have needed the question mark. Otherwise, 
they should have put the names of both Neville and Harry on there. 
And I also think that, unless because Neville fit the prophecy as 
well, the only other reason he could touch it was because it had to 
be pulled from the shelf by the one it was made about and then 
anyone could touch it. However, I still think there's either been a 
mistake here (that Neville's name should also have been on the 
prophecy), or there's something that still hasn't been revealed 
about why, although the prophecy seemed to fit them both, it was 
undoubtedly Harry it referred to.

Now me:
Dumbledore said in the book that the Keeper of the Hall of 
Prophecies must have added Harry's name to the label after Voldemort 
tried to kill the one-year-old Harry.  I would surmise that the 
label, up until the additon of Harry's name just said "The Dark Lord 
and (?)", because no one knew exactly to whom the prophecy was 
referring.  So, after Voldemort attacks Harry, Harry survives with a 
mark and Voldemort loses his powers and disappears, the keeper 
figures that the mystery of who the (?) name is is solved and writes 
it on the label after the question mark.  Since the whole point of 
making a charm that drives mad anyone who touches orbs that don't 
concern them is to protect those prophecies, then I seriously doubt 
the keeper would put two possible names on there (i.e. The Dark Lord 
and Harry Potter OR Neville Longbottom on the label) when one of the 
names may be wrong leaving the orb able to be picked up by someone 
who has nothing to do with the prophecy within.   


Aesha wrote:
>     The whole thing Dumbledore said bothers me. I don't want Harry 
to be "the one" just because he was chosen by Voldemort; I want 
there to be a greater reason why Harry was destined to be the One. 
Yes, I know there's this whole theme throughout the series about how 
your choices make you who you are, but I'm feeling a litttle let 
down by this. Perhaps that's why I was so disapopinted in the book.

Now me:
But Harry being "the one" isn't really about destiny.  Voldemort 
made a choice to attack when Harry was only a baby, setting the 
prophecy into it's paradoxal loop.  The very fact the prophecy 
existed has caused the prophecy to come to true.  Harry, left to 
uncaring and deliberately abusive relatives, made choices as he was 
growing up that resulted in him being a decent, kind and good 
person.  Look at Snape as a comparison - the abuse and neglect were 
also there, but he didn't make the same choices as Harry, not at 
first anyway, and ended up a Death Eater.  While Snape later joined 
the good guys, he is not a genuinely good person like Harry is.  And 
Harry's choices will still come into play.  He keeps choosing to 
follow the spirit of the prophecy (his flouting Voldemort getting 
the Sorcerer's Stone in SS/PS; the rescue of Ginny from Riddle in 
CoS; the rescue of Sirius and Buckbeak plus the reveal of Wormtail 
in PoA; most of his decisions in GoF) even when the easier path is 
to not do any of those heroic, dangerous things.  And now that he 
knows the prophecy, he will have to make even bigger choices.  How 
will he live his life now that he knows he must personally kill 
Voldemort or be killed by Voldemort?  Will he make wiser choices?  
Will he try to rush the encounter to get it over with or will he 
want to delay it as long as he can until he can't avoid it anymore?  
Remember, the prophecy does not guarantee that Harry will triumph 
over Voldemort, all it says is that Harry has the *power* or 
potential to vanquish Voldemort.  His ultimate triumph will depend 
upon his choices right up until the death of one of them takes 
place.    

That was a good post, Aesha. Thanks!

Diana L.