OOP: James( was:Two-way Mirror and other frustrations)

[fitzchivalryhk]

No: HPFGUIDX 65865

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" 
<valkyrievixen at y...> wrote:
> At this point I should let go but I can't. 

I have a feeling that this discussion has gone on from a debate for 
the clash of ideas to an exercise of debating skills :P , so this 
will be my last post on this thread :)

<snip>
> Sirius admits he hexed people for the fun of it. (NB. He *hexed* 
not 
> *cursed* are we getting a small hint about the line between Dark 
and 
> Light?)

I checked the word "hex" in dictionary, and here's what the 
dictionary comes up with:

hex
n. 
1. An evil spell; a curse. 
2. One that brings bad luck. 

tr.v. hexed, hex·ing, hex·es 
1. To put a hex on. 
2. To bring or wish bad luck to.

So we have hex = evil spell/ a curse.
I don't think that using "hex" points out the difference between Dark 
and Light after all.


> Neither of these statements however *truly* reflect James choice of 
> victim. Or his mind in doing so. They are speculatives from 
observers 
> and so cannot rule out entirely James percieving himself acting on 
a 
> noble principle. 

Okay, in this scene:
1. We have evidence from witness who was James' friend (Sirius) and 
someone (Lily) who apparently James treated very well. They both told 
statements that suggest James did not hate Snape mainly because of 
his presumed "evilness".

2. We have no evidence that James hated Snape mainly for other 
reasons, even though Sirius or Remus was in a good position to say so 
when Harry asked about Snape's worst memory.

Of course, I am not James and cannot really say how he felt at that 
time :) but , isn't it more logical to believe something that we have 
evidence to support, than believing in something that has no evidence 
to support whatsoever?

> Besides, Lily never actually *hated* him. That, speaks multitudes 
for 
> his character away from this scene. 

Hmm.. I wouldn't presume what Lily felt about James. There was
not 
much said in the books about that, and even if you hate someone 
during one time, you can still love him/her at another time. 
 
> As I have said our proof that he hexed others does have *no canon 
to 
> entirely rule out* the *choice* supposition.

To "rule out entirely" , no, but we cannot rule out entirely
the  
possibility that the sun will explode tomorrow as well


> And in defense I must point out that we have plenty of evidence of 
> James choices and sense of discernment in that scene. It is not 
> punctuated like the story of his indiscretion is, so, it is ohh too 
> easy to gloss over. We are being decieved about James' mind and 
heart 
> if we don't look at his choices outside of the bullying.

But I think the evidence are all thwarted. James bullying of Snape 
started without provocation, James bullied Snape BEFORE Snape called 
Lily a mudblood, James hated Snape at first sight and it was doubtful 
if one can tell someone's evil at first sight.
 
> That precisely is the lesson James needed to learn after his 5th 
year 
> at Hogwarts.
> Not that he was a bad person, but that he had made a big mistake 
and 
> respect does not come from your choice to hate something, no matter 
> what it be.

Thank you for your clarification. This is exactly how I feel too, 
that respect does not come from your choice to hate something. 

<snip>
> Snape chose evil. James made an evil choice. In case you needed 
> clarification. 

You made an interesting point though, in your comparison between 
Snape and James. In your view, Snape chose evil and James made an 
evil choice. I assume you mean Snape was basically an evil person, 
who chose to do evil things most of the time, while James was 
basically a good person, who chose to do evil things occasionally 
like in the scene. I also assume that you came to this conclusion 
because Snape later became a death eater, and James became a member 
of the Order of Pheonix. However, I must say that you cannot judge a 
person because of the things they do in the future (relative to the 
time frame of the scene in Snape's worst memory), but the things
they 
do now.

<snip> 
> James' wanted people to know he loved good.
> He wanted to be reknowned 
> for loving good. That is why he chose to taunt Snape when he saw 
him. 

Yes, but if you hurt others because you want to be renowned, does not 
that make you less than good? 

 
> IMHO you call someone "Snivellus" because they have allowed 
> themselves the indignity of being enslaved to someone elses 
> principles.

I assume the nick name "Snivellus" comes from the word
"snivel", and 
according to dictionary :

sniv·el  
intr.v. sniv·eled, or sniv·elled sniv·el·ing, or
sniv·el·ling 
sniv·els or sniv·els 
1. To sniffle. 
2. To complain or whine tearfully. 
3. To run at the nose.

I don't see it has anything to do with "being enslaved to
someone 
else's principles" at all. It does suggest Snape weeped more
than 
once in his school life, and probably complained to others (be it 
Lucius Malfoy, and perhaps, Dumbledore?). Why would he be weeping 
or/and complaining then? Being bullied, perhaps?

> Ok in closing I will say that James' heart is not cold to Snapes 
> suffering in this scene. But save the pointage for a later debate I 
> am running out of killers here.

Then you are saying James could empathies with Snape during that 
scene and still continued taunting Snape, threatening to remove his 
underpants and called the attention of the crowd around them 


> Valky acknowledging that Fitz has struck most of my arguments with 
a 
> huge mallet and near had me conceding defeat.

Thanks for your praises, Valky, and I admire your spirit of debate 
and how we manage to keep it cool :p

Fitz