OOP: James( was:Two-way Mirror and other frustrations)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 64857

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fitzchivalryhk" 
<fitzchivalryhk at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" 
> <valkyrievixen at y...> wrote:
Hi again,
At this point I should let go but I can't. I just haven't quite 
proved how the scene is illustrating truth and deception about the 
nature of James and Sirius vs Snape.
:b You have put up a mighty resistance and I applaud your dignity. 
There is so much truth and logic in your argument.
I have given myself a difficult task, to exhume the ghost of nobility 
from 15yr old James in this scene. It is buried beneath layers of 
point of fact and designer perception in the negative.
By that statement I do not mean to give support to the theory that 
the memory is "Snape perception" altered. I do not think it is. I 
believe it happened exactly that way, and can still see James 
mistakenly, thinking his choice was noble and would earn him respect 
from followers of a righteous creed.

To the Debate!
> Fitz wrote:
> 1. Nowhere in the book does it suggest James hated ONLY Snape, and 
> hated him ONLY because he was involved in Dark Arts (which you 
equate 
> to evilness). In fact, Sirius said it was a hate at first-sight 
> thing. I doubted that you can tell a person is "evil" at first-
sight.

Correct to exactitude. Nowhere in that book does it prove that James 
hated ONLY Snape. In point of fact it has a direct statement to the 
contrary, when Lily accuses him of hexing anyone who annoys him, and 
Sirius admits he hexed people for the fun of it. (NB. He *hexed* not 
*cursed* are we getting a small hint about the line between Dark and 
Light?)
Neither of these statements however *truly* reflect James choice of 
victim. Or his mind in doing so. They are speculatives from observers 
and so cannot rule out entirely James percieving himself acting on a 
noble principle. As ridiculously dishonourable as his actions may 
have been. We are not told James' truth here. 
Besides, Lily never actually *hated* him. That, speaks multitudes for 
his character away from this scene. If he was as bad as she claimed 
in her heated frustration at him that day she would probably be 
turned off for life. Thats a weak argument, but it holds a few drops 
on its own so i'll shove it in here for an extra half mark.

> 
> 2. This point is tightly tied to (1). Other posters have repeatedly 
> pointed out that according to Lily, James "hexed anyone who annoyed 
> him". And this is a main argument against your suggestion that "his 
> (Jame's) spite was directed at someones choice to hate". Surely, if 
> James only hexed those who are mouthing words like "mudblood", Lily 
> would have noticed. I cannot find any of your response to this main 
> argument about the "James hated Snape mainly for his bigotry" 
theory.

As I have said our proof that he hexed others does have *no canon to 
entirely rule out* the *choice* supposition.
And in defense I must point out that we have plenty of evidence of 
James choices and sense of discernment in that scene. It is not 
punctuated like the story of his indiscretion is, so, it is ohh too 
easy to gloss over. We are being decieved about James' mind and heart 
if we don't look at his choices outside of the bullying.

> 
> 3. Should a person "earn" respect because he hated another person? 
> I would say a person should earn respect because he had done 
> something good, or that he had stopped something bad from 
> happening. But for hating someone? I do not think so.
> 
That precisely is the lesson James needed to learn after his 5th year 
at Hogwarts.
Not that he was a bad person, but that he had made a big mistake and 
respect does not come from your choice to hate something, no matter 
what it be.
I again insist James was good inside and was acting on his principle 
of righteousness in the scene. He learned that dishonour came not 
only from a choice of evil but from evil choices as well.
Snape chose evil. James made an evil choice. In case you needed 
clarification.

> 4. Is it commendable when the hatred leads to bullying of the hated 
> party?

No never. James made the mistake of thinking it was commendable to 
hate evil. But hate is an evil in itself. One choice to hate can undo 
all good. The road is paved with good intentions and it leads where?
James' wanted people to know he loved good. He wanted to be reknowned 
for loving good. That is why he chose to taunt Snape when he saw him. 

> 
> > With this I strongly disagree. Snape did manage a dangerous 
> attack on James himself, as I recall. 
> 
> Whether Snape was indeed weaker than James, and whether Snape could 
> make dangerous attack did not necessarily matter here, because we 
are 
> talking about Jame's perception of Snape, not the fact whether 
Snape 
> was weaker. Would you call someone "Snivellus" if you consider him 
> stronger than yourself, or equal to yourself?

IMHO you call someone "Snivellus" because they have allowed 
themselves the indignity of being enslaved to someone elses 
principles.
I would guess Lucius Malfoy and there are a lot of theories flying 
about that.
In terms of it meaning that Snape was not James' equal, I say yes, it 
meant, James' and Sirius thought Snape was below themselves in honour.
That of course is irrelevant to his power as a spellcaster. I assume 
that there was some rivalry between them for that.
 

> > And finally I agree entirely with Harry that the pain of being in 
> > that situation is not justified in any of these statements. They 
> are 
> > merely in defense of James as a person who made a stupid mistake.
> > I will not easily back down from the debate that in even this 
> > particular scene James' Heart was good and warm.
> 
> That's what I totally disagree with, I do not think James' heart 
was 
> good and warm in this scene at all. If he is that "good and warm" 
he 
> should see how Snape was suffering, and understand what a horrible 
> thing it is to publicly humiliate and assault anyone like that. 
Even 
> if it is as you say that James did it to impress a girl, does it 
mean 
> he had the license to hurt someone so badly, and still claim that 
he 
> was "warm and good" at that time? I think his heart was cold and 
> cruel at this scene. This, does not mean James was cold and cruel 
all 
> through his life though.

> 
> Fitz

Ok in closing I will say that James' heart is not cold to Snapes 
suffering in this scene. But save the pointage for a later debate I 
am running out of killers here.

Valky acknowledging that Fitz has struck most of my arguments with a 
huge mallet and near had me conceding defeat.