Who conjures the Prongs Patronus?

[drtruman]

No: HPFGUIDX 53299

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. Please, be kind, esp. if this has 
been discussed before and I missed it!

I have always wondered exactly what happens in PoA to allow Harry 
(and Hermione and Sirius) to escape from the dementors after the 
Shrieking Shack episode. As I see it, there are two possibilities:

1) Harry tries to conjure up a Patronus, but fails; he then sees 
somebody on the far bank -- who he thinks is his dad -- and also sees 
the "stag Patronus" coming to rescue him. When he goes back later via 
the Time-Turner, he realizes (from his perspective on the far bank) 
that it wasn't his father there, it was HIM, and he conjures up the 
powerful "stag Patronus" to save "his other self."

2) Harry's Patronus was more powerful than he originally thought, and 
while the Dementors initially fought through it, somehow it gathered 
steam and became the (ultimately effective) "stag Patronus." When he 
goes back later via Time-Turner, and conjures up the stag Patronus 
from the far bank, he is in effect doing "Patronus overkill," and 
conjures up the strong Patronus to be sure he will be saved again. 
This is easier for him because he knew he had already done it.

The text (which I'll get to in a minute), seems more strongly to 
suggest option 1). However, it seems to me that in order to be able 
to go back later to conjure up a Patronus to save himself, somehow 
Harry needs to be saved -- by himself, by his father, by Dumbledore, 
by *someone* -- in the first place in order to survive to then come 
*back* via Time-Turner to do it later. 

The text, as is often the case with JKR, is ambiguous. In the initial 
contact with the dementors, there's this account:

>By the feeble light of his formless Patronus, he saw a dementor 
>halt, very close to him. It couldn't walk through the cloud of 
>silver mist Harry had conjured. A dead, slimy hand slid out from 
>under the cloak. It made a gesture *as though to sweep the Patronus 
>aside.* 

[snip detail about the dementor beginning the Dementor's Kiss] 

>A paralyzing terror filled Harry so that he couldn't move or speak. 
>*His Patronus flickered and died.* 
PoA, US Hardcover, p. 384.

Then, just as the dementor is beginning to apply the Dementor's Kiss 
to Harry, we get this:

>And then, through the fog that was drowning him, he thought he saw a 
>silvery light growing brighter and brighter.... He felt himself fall 
>forward onto the grass.... 

[snip detail about the dementors scattering]

>With every ounce of strength he could muster, Harry raised his head 
>a few inches and saw an animal amid the light, galloping away across 
>the lake.... Eyes blurred with sweat, Harry tried to make out what 
>it was.... It was as bright as a unicorn.... Fighting to stay 
>conscious, Harry watched it canter to a halt as it reached the 
>opposite shore. For a moment, Harry saw, by its brightness, somebody 
>welcoming it back ... raising his hand to pat it ... someone who 
>looked strangely familiar ... but it couldn't be ... 
>Harry didn't understand. He couldn't think anymore. He felt the last 
>of his strength leave him, and his head hit the ground as he 
>fainted. 
PoA, US Hardcover, 384-85 

Then, when Hermione and Harry return via Time-Turner, there's this:

>The lake was coming nearer and nearer, but there was no sign of 
>anybody. On the opposite bank, he could see tiny glimmers of silver -
>- his own attempts at a Patronus -- 
>There was a bush at the very edge of the water. Harry drew himself 
>behind it, peering desperately through the leaves. On the opposite 
>bank, *the glimmers of silver were suddenly extinguished.* A 
>terrified excitement shot through him -- any moment now -- 
>"Come on!" he muttered, staring about. "Where are you? Dad, come on -
-" 
>But no one came. Harry raised his head to look at the circle of 
>dementors across the lake. One of them was lowering its hood. It was 
>time for the rescuer to appear -- but no one was coming to help this 
>time -- 
>And then it hit him -- he understood. He hadn't seen his father -- 
>*he had seen himself* -- 

[snip detail about Harry conjuring stag patronus, which scares off 
dementors] 

>It wasn't a unicorn, either. It was a stag. It was shining brightly 
>as the moon above.... It was coming back to him.... 
>It stopped on the bank. Its hooves made no mark on the soft ground 
>as it stared at Harry with its large, silver eyes. Slowly, it bowed 
>its antlered head. And Harry realized... 
>"Prongs," he whispered. 
>But as his trembling fingertips stretched towards the creature, it 
>vanished. 

[Hermione returns and Harry tells her what happened]

>Hermione listened to what had just happened with her mouth open yet 
>again. 
>"Did anyone see you?" 
>"Yes, haven't you been listening? *I saw me but I thought I was my 
>dad!* It's okay!" 
>"Harry, I can't believe it.... You conjured up a Patronus that drove 
>away all those dementors! That's very, very advanced magic...." 
>"I knew I could do it this time," said Harry, "*because I'd already 
>done it*.... Does that make sense?" 
PoA, US Hardcover, 410-12

Finally, at the end of the book when Harry and Dumbledore are doing 
their usual post-mortem, there's this exchange after Harry says that 
he thought he'd seen his dad conjuring the Patronus:

>"It was stupid, thinking it was him," he muttered. "I mean, I knew 
>he was dead." 
>"You think the dead we loved ever truly leave us? You think that we 
>don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble? 
>Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly 
>when you have need of him. How else could you produce that 
>particular Patronus? Prongs rode again last night." 
>It took a moment for Harry to realize what Dumbledore had said. 

[snip detail not relevant to this issue] 

>And Dumbledore left the office, leaving Harry to his most confused 
>thoughts. 
PoA, US Hardcover, 427-28

Well, if Harry's thoughts are confused, so are mine. In the first 
excerpt, JKR seems to make it clear that Harry's Patronus has failed. 
But then, after he's conjured the stag Patronus to (apparently) save 
himself, Harry says he did it before. When? Did he do it before to 
escape from the dementors (as "Harry #1"), or did he do it before 
from the other bank of the lake (as "Harry #2")? Yikes!

Then, when Dumbledore says "Prongs rode again last night," JKR says 
it took Harry a moment to realize what Dumbledore had said. But what 
is he saying here, exactly? Is he saying that what Harry saw across 
the lake was a vision of his father -- appearing to him in time of 
need -- and that he was thus inspired to come up with the strong 
Patronus? Or is he saying "this is why your Patronus is the shape it 
is" and not addressing the question of how Harry got out of the 
initial confrontation?

The other question I have is that if he had done it before -- 
conjured a successful Patronus -- and he realized that he had done 
so, why go to the trouble of doing it again? Why not just watch as 
your "other self" conjures up a Patronus and escapes the Dementors, 
because you obviously know you're going to live through it? Is it 
because Harry is as confused about the nature of time-travel as I am, 
and he thinks (erroneously) that "Harry #2" conjured the patronus 
from the far bank, when what really happened was that "Harry #1" 
conjured one that was stronger than he thought? And therefore, he 
thinks he has to conjure another one in order to save himself again?

I know this is a bit long (esp. for a first post), but it's been 
bugging me for a while, long before I discovered this list. I'm 
hoping that somebody out there can clear things up for me.

Norm