Point of Order: "The Marauders"

[GulPlum]

No: HPFGUIDX 53411

OK, several replies in one; I suspect that this post may (again) come 
across as a lot more strident than I intend it to be, but I'm not entirely 
sure how I can portray the strength of my feelings on this issue otherwise. 
I'm not trying to slam anyone down or belittle them or their PoV, but I do 
disagree with most of the comments quite fundamentally.

Maria's points:

>No, "The Marauders" is not canonically correct. But it is *sometimes* 
>better to use than MWPP for a couple of reasons.
>
>1. It just sounds cool.

It doesn't to me. It actually annoys me. As, indeed, does the word "cool" 
(other than in inverted commas). But then that's a generational thing, so 
I'm prepared to give the word a lot of leeway.

>2. Some people don't like Peter Pettigrew. M*W*PP includes him, and it 
>becomes uncomfortable (to me, at least) to use MWPP when I'm talking about 
>friendship and trust. I don't know why, but I have to make a conscious 
>effort to stick that 'W' in there.

Sorry, but he was an integral part of the foursome, and his betrayal of 
their friendship makes it even more important to include him in that. I 
really don't see how this justifies the use of "Marauders" as an 
alternative anyway, because that's still a reference to the foursome.

>3. MWPP, while shorter, is harder to use as a noun, and, hence, work it 
>into a nice-sounding sentence.

Considering some of the awfully-constructed sentences I've seen on this 
list, please forgive me for expressing surprise at the notion that a 
four-letter acronym can destroy a "nice sounding sentence".

>4. When one talks about 'the remaining Marauders' - Sirius and Remus, it's 
>kinda strange to use MP. Of course, one could just say S&R, but then why 
>don't we jsut call MWPP RPSJ instead?

As I said in my original post, I have no objection to rational 
abbreviations or acronyms. Referring to the foursome as the "Marauders" is, 
as Mr Spock would put it, both irrational and illogical. As I said 
originally, it also betrays a poor grasp of the English language which does 
not fit in with the ideals of in-depth analysis for which the members of 
this list as a community pride themselves (and rightfully so).

>It might be easier is you think of the nickname 'Marauders' just as a 
>fandom name for MWPP.

I'm perfectly aware of that. That is probably the main reason why it annoys 
me so much. This list places "canonicity" in such high regard for a reason. 
Whenever anyone confuses their book canon with the stuff on the silver 
screen, they are rightfully (and sometimes righteously) shot down. Why do 
we therefore accept fanon ingression?

Lexicon Steve made similar points:

>It's just so darn handy to have a nice quick name for that group that it's 
>hard to get by without using it. And what does it hurt, really? We all 
>know what we're talking about. I think we can all agree that the books 
>don't support using that term. We can also agree that saying "James, 
>Sirius, Peter, and Remus" all
>the time is cumbersome and JSPR isn't as much fun. So Marauders it is.

Sorry, but I don't agree with anything which condones sloppy thought 
processes (and sloppy English) in the midst of intelligent (and often 
intellectual) debate. I may well be tilting at windmills, but I have no 
reason at this stage to lose hope in encouraging people to *think*.

>Now we need to come up with a nice, simple name for HRH that has
>some tenuous connection to the books. That would be handy too. Then
>I can try to keep myself from using that in the Lexicon too.

HRH is a typically internetty acronym which is rational, logical and clear. 
"The Trio" is a frequently used term as well which is descriptive and 
although not used in canon, is obvious and (one of my objections) is not 
based on a *mis-reading* (or bad understanding) of canon.

>If we want to call them something, we could call them the "little gang," 
>since they are actually called that in PA. But that's not a very exciting 
>title. Also, clearly McGonagall didn't mean that to be an actual name for 
>the group. It doesn't make sense from the reference. Note, however, that 
>calling them The Marauders because of the title of the map makes no more 
>sense than calling them "The Little Gang" because McGonagall did. In fact, 
>it makes a lot less
>sense.

It was a generic description, not a name. The context was "Black and 
Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang" (p. 152, smack in the middle of 
the chapter entitled er... "The Marauder's Map"). Using it as a name is 
pointless, meaningless and ultimately without merit. The thing is, the 
"gang" *did* have a name, however cumbersome, and *that* should be the 
basis of its acronym. That is the basis of my argument.

Pippin added:

>It seems to me you undermine your own argument here. Since Apostrophe 
>Abuse is so common, couldn't the, er, parties in question have perpetrated 
>some themselves? It's clear they did want to think of themselves as bad 
>boys. The incantation which activates the Map is, "I solemnly swear that I 
>am up to no good."

As it happens, no, I don't think that the parties in question would have 
perpetrated Crimes Against Apostrophes. :-) They have a clear understanding 
of formal English which they use to great comic effect both in the heading 
on the Map and in their replies to Snape later on. In any case, they're of 
a generation which more than likely would have been taught proper use of 
English punctuation, a skill which appears to have lost its value, as 
evidenced in some respects by this very topic.

Last but by no means least, Barb made a very long, and IMO untypically 
bizarrely-argued  post. I apologise for my slightly facetious tone 
(commenting only on her first paragraph) because the first sentence of her 
comments shocked me out of my socks:

>The title of the map clearly indicates that it is for the benefit of 
>Marauders (plural).

Sorry, but how can "Marauder's" be a plural? And especially "clearly" a 
plural? My mind is reeling thinking about the linguistic gymnastics 
required to draw such a conclusion. Ah... Barb then provides a gymnastic 
display worthy of Olga Korbutt:

>And who benefited from the existence of the map?  Sirius, James et al.  If 
>the map had been labeled, "For the use of the skilled Marauder," 
>(singular) one could also assume that this meant Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot 
>and Prongs--all four of them.   This construction and the apostrophe is 
>not, as you noted in your citation of "Visitor's," indicative of there 
>being only one Marauder.

Sorry, Barb, but aren't you being just a touch disingenuous?

You missed one important element from the Map's heading. I missed it in my 
previous post as well; this was meant to have been part of my argument, but 
I forgot to mention it, although it was the Map's full heading which 
started me wondering something about the Map long before I'd seen "The 
Marauders" as a term for the foursome.

The full heading/title is:
"Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers
are proud to present
THE MARAUDER'S MAP"

Hmmm.... *Purveyors*... I can't be bothered to look up a dictionary 
definition, but off the top of my head, I'd suggest "suppliers" as a 
synonym. The thing is, Messrs. M,W,P&P *supply* these aids, perhaps for 
money (a la Gred & Forge), or perhaps just for kicks (as do Gred & Forge 
with some of their products). This extremely (mock) formal way of heading 
the Map strikes me as completely out of place if the map is solely for 
their own use. If it's not designed for anyone else's use, why waste space 
with that verbose introduction?

The only "clear" indication *I* get from the structure and language is that 
this map is specifically designed *other* than for the authors' use. A 
Marauder's.

 From where do you get "skilled Marauder"? It strikes me that this is an 
aid for the *unskilled* Marauder. Indeed, Gred & Forge, who by the time 
they give Harry the Map are very much "skilled", say categorically that his 
need for the Map, as a "beginner" (my word, not canon's), is greater than 
theirs. Furthermore, Fred specifically refers to M,W,P&P as "noble men, 
working tirelessly to help a new generation of lawbreakers".

This brings me to an issue not relevant to this particular discussion... 
All of this strikes me as a powerful indicator that there are *other* 
copies of the Map around. Where are they? Were they all found and 
destroyed, or are there scraps of parchment around Hogwarts with old pieces 
of homework scribbled on them, whose hidden attributes were never 
discovered? What other "Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers" did they 
produce?  And where are *they*? I'm sure that a raid on Filch's filing 
cabinet is yet to come and will provide several more M,W,P&P products...

On that point, I think I'll finish. Again, I apologise if anyone 
(especially the authors of the posts to which I'm responding) feels 
personally offended by my tone or comments, but I really do feel very 
strongly about this issue and I may have got a little carried away. I don't 
mean to be personal and I certainly respect the views of everyone to whom I 
responded even if I may fundamentally disagree with them on their approach 
to this issue.

--
GulPlum AKA Richard, who's just noticed it's gone 3.30am and decides it's 
way past his bedtime.