Point of Order: "The Marauders"

[psychic_serpent]

No: HPFGUIDX 53436

I wrote:
> >The title of the map clearly indicates that it is for the benefit 
> > of Marauders (plural).

and then GulPlum wrote:
 
> Sorry, but how can "Marauder's" be a plural? And 
> especially "clearly" a plural? 

Me:

Hm. Since you brought up the Visitor's Map, I thought you understood 
this.  Evidently not.  Okay, let me try again.  A "Visitor's Map" is 
not for the use of only one visitor in history.  It is for the use of 
any who IS A VISITOR.  This would mean it is for visitors, PLURAL.  
Similarly, a Marauder's Map would be for anyone who is a Marauder.  
For all Marauders, plural, in other words.  At no time did I say that 
the word "Marauder's" was plural.  I said that the construction 
clearly INDICATED that it was for Marauders in general.  I don't know 
how to be any clearer about it than that, especially since you 
(marginally) made this point yourself (and then discarded it, as 
though you hadn't) when you brought up the Visitor's Map as an 
equivalent.  How this is "disingenuous" is something you still need 
to explain to me.  It is a common English usage with clear 
implications, and anyone who thinks such an item is for only one 
Marauder is rather confused.

Gulplum wrote: 
> You missed one important element from the Map's heading. I missed 
> it in my previous post as well; this was meant to have been part of 
> my argument, but I forgot to mention it, although it was the Map's 
> full heading which started me wondering something about the Map 
> long before I'd seen "The Marauders" as a term for the foursome.
> 
> The full heading/title is:
> "Messrs. Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs
> Purveyors of Aids to Magical Mischief-Makers
> are proud to present
> THE MARAUDER'S MAP"
> 
> Hmmm.... *Purveyors*... I can't be bothered to look up a dictionary 
> definition, but off the top of my head, I'd suggest "suppliers" as 
> a synonym. The thing is, Messrs. M,W,P&P *supply* these aids, 
> perhaps for money (a la Gred & Forge), or perhaps just for kicks 
> (as do Gred & Forge with some of their products). This extremely 
> (mock) formal way of heading the Map strikes me as completely out 
> of place if the map is solely for their own use. If it's not 
> designed for anyone else's use, why waste space with that verbose 
> introduction?

Me:
Actually that heading was very much in my mind when I wrote my 
reply.  Why would they write that?  Again, youthful bravado, IMO.  
(You evidently decided to gloss over that part of my post.)  It seems 
to me that they were obviously full of themselves.  Do you honestly 
think they were "purveyors" of anything, to anyone else?  I stand by 
my assertion that they created this for their own use--Remus Lupin 
tells Harry this in PoA.  He says he was one of the creators.  MWPP 
would probably expect a map like the one they created to carry just 
such a label.  They were having fun and wanted everything to be as 
authentic as possible.  THEY evidently had a sense of humor and fun. 
(Look at the way the map insulted Snape!  Love it!) I think anyone 
who can't imagine doing this except in the utmost seriousness may 
need to take a page from their book when it comes to that sort of 
thing.  ("Oh, Padfoot, we can't put that on there about being 
purveyers unless we have a business plan..." <g>)

Gulplum continued to mystify me by asking: 
>  From where do you get "skilled Marauder"? It strikes me that this 
> is an aid for the *unskilled* Marauder. Indeed, Gred & Forge, who 
> by the time they give Harry the Map are very much "skilled", say 
> categorically that his need for the Map, as a "beginner" (my word, 
> not canon's), is greater than theirs. Furthermore, Fred 
> specifically refers to M,W,P&P as "noble men, working tirelessly to 
> help a new generation of lawbreakers".

Me:
Gred and Forge seemed to think they knew everything about the castle, 
and that's supposedly why they gave it up.  Frankly, I thought this 
was a poor excuse, as one of the most useful things about the map is 
the fact that you can see people moving about the castle and grounds 
(this is how, for instance, Lupin spots that Peter is leaving 
Hagrid's hut with Ron).  For the twins to give up the ability to spy 
on people this way is rather mystifying frankly, but JKR wanted Harry 
to have the map, so evidently she decided not to explain away their 
willingness to sacrifice this advantage.  A skilled Marauder would 
use every tool at his disposal, IMO, and a map showing where people 
are moving about certainly fits the bill.  (If you're implying that 
Gred and Forge can still do this without the aid of the map, I'm 
afraid there's no canon support for that.)  

The twins also had no idea who MWPP were, as they found the map in 
Filch's office.  It's possible that the original four bequeathed it 
to some younger students when they were preparing to leave school, 
and after being passed down over the years it was eventually 
confiscated by Filch, but there is no evidence that anyone ever used 
the map while MWPP were in school other than the creators.  Lupin 
speaks of their exploits but does not include anything about making 
money selling maps.

Gulplum then continues:
> This brings me to an issue not relevant to this particular 
> discussion... All of this strikes me as a powerful indicator that 
> there are *other* copies of the Map around. Where are they? Were 
> they all found and destroyed, or are there scraps of parchment 
> around Hogwarts with old pieces of homework scribbled on them, 
> whose hidden attributes were never discovered? What other "Aids to 
> Magical Mischief-Makers" did they produce?  And where are *they*? 
> I'm sure that a raid on Filch's filing cabinet is yet to come and 
> will provide several more M,W,P&P products...

Me:
I'm afraid that you're really reaching now.  Lupin speaks of the map 
almost reverently, as though it was a one-of-a-kind item.  He says he 
helped create THAT map, not "maps." (Where's the fun in sneaking 
around the castle, feeling omnipotent, if you've sold twenty other 
copies to other people, who are all simultaneously doing the same 
thing?  There's also no opportunity to feel smug and superior if 
you're not the only ones who can do certain things--and Snape 
definitely seemed to think they felt smug and superior.)  As I said 
above, IMO, the label was clearly to add authenticity to it, as part 
of their youthful fun.  While more MWPP inventions may very well be 
in Filch's office, there is nothing in canon to indicate either this 
or multiple maps.  

One thing that is strongly implied in canon, when Snape tries and 
fails to activate the map, is that he KNOWS who the nicknames 
abbreviated by MWPP refer to.  It is also strongly implied that he 
knows the hump-backed witch is an entrance to a secret passage, 
although he is unable to activate it.  To take the label on the 
Marauder's Map literally instead of recognizing it for an obvious 
inside joke strikes ME as disingenuous, frankly.  

--Barb

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