how does Winky know Dobby? (long)

[sevenhundredandthirteen]

No: HPFGUIDX 53459

Ing wrote:

> So, are we to think that either of these men payed social calls to 
> the other, thus giving their house elves the chance to meet?
> 
> maybe we are to assume that - which might explain how Lucius 
> escaped Azkaban.  But that does not fit in the least with Crouch's 
> character.  So what are the other possibilities?
> 
> As far as I can see, they either had mutual friends and went to 
> the same parties (but surely Crouch wouldn't have brought 
> Winky - she'd have been home taking care of Crouch Jr.) or else 
> Dobby used to belong to someone else.  And if so, to whom?
> 
> I don't imagine there are house-elf conventions.

Exactly! I have previously pondered this very question only a few 
short weeks ago. I managed to come up with more than 15 possibilities 
as to how Dobby and Winky can know each other and, from my POV maybe 
only 2 or 3 could possibly be true. My final conclusion is that it's 
just a conveinient plot device/flint.

Here's an essay I wrote but never posted:

CONCERNING HOUSE-ELVES

"If you accuse my elf, you accuse me..." - Barty Crouch, Snr.
An exploration of what Winky and Dobby's relationship could actually 
mean.

It struck me as odd that Dobby and Winky know each other and are 
seemingly friends with one another. After all, their previous masters 
were the Crouches and the Malfoys. It hardly seems as though there 
would be much socialising between the two groups, at least after 
Voldemort's downfall. Before that time, there was Barty Jnr (who 
would have had explicit reason to consort with the Malfoys). Of 
course, after Voldemort's downfall he was under the Imperious curse, 
so that severs that connection, but Dobby and Winky appear to have an 
active friendship. What concerns me most about this relationship is 
that because house-elves are enslaved servants, their familiarity and 
*current* friendship seems to suggest a similar relationship between 
their masters .("If you accuse my elf, you accuse me...") It concerns 
me. I thought of every possible way of linking Dobby and Winky as I 
possibly could. Some are boring (they do their shopping at the same 
place). Some are Bangy (Bartemus Crouch Snr was actually a double-
agent). All of them somehow allow Dobby and Winky to have a current 
and familia friendship. They are outlined below with no real 
intention to find an answer, just support and refute for each theory 
as I see it.

Things to consider.* (see end of post for how I deducted these 
things.)
They are obviously good friends.
We don't know when they met.
We do (roughly) know how house-elves are viewed by wizards, at 
different social and political stages of history (ie. During the 
Voldemort wars, after the Voldemort wars).
We know Dobby and Winky have kept in contact after Dobby was sacked.
We know that Dobby knows where Winky lives.
We know that Dobby could find Winky after he heard she was sacked.
We know that they keep in contact fairly regularly.


1. Dobby and Winky do their shopping together.
The Concept: Dobby meets Winky whilst in the fruit and vegetables 
isle at the local grocery store. Wizards certainly eat, so someone 
has to get the food. Canon shows that Dobby cooks the food. So it's 
likely he also buys it. This must mean that there are wizarding shops 
(A house-elf in a muggle shop would hardly go unnoticed after all). 
Perhaps they simple apparate into Hogsmeade.

Why it can't be true: 
Consider these pieces of canon:
Barty Crouch, Jnr, whilst under Veritaserum (Chapter 
35 "Veritaserum.") Says-
"'I was always with the house-elf. She was my keeper and carer.'"
And also-
"'I had not left the house for years.'"
Barty is always with Winky. Barty hasn't left the house for years. 
Hence, Winky hasn't left the house for years. Therefore, Winky can't 
shop unless she does it from home. Therefore she can't meet Dobby 
under this circumstance. (I realise that this might be a bit 
exaggerated, but seeing as he *was* under veritaserum, it's pretty 
straightforward to assume that he's telling the truth.)


2. There is a social network for house-elves.
The Concept: Communication between elves is a common place activity 
and you can look people up in the yellow pages, or meet on a chat-
line.

Why it can't be true.
Firstly, Winky has never left the house for years, and she is never 
without Barty (see above).
What's more: "'House-elves is not supposed to have fun, Harry 
Potter,' said Winky firmly." (GoF, Chapter 8, "The Quidditch World 
Cup."). Dobby says he is 'treated like vermin.' (Cos, Chapter 
10, "The Rogue Bludger.") If there is a house-elf interaction 
service, Dobby wouldn't be permitted to use it because the Malfoys 
are cruel, and Winky wouldn't *want* to use it because she's devoted 
to the belief that she doesn't deserve it.


3. The Ministry Of Magic, Department of Regulation and Control of 
Magical Creatures has regular house-elf meets where they ensure house-
elves are fulfilling their duties.

Why it's unlikely to be true:
Something that might happen only once a year is hardly enough for 
Dobby and Winky to become best of buddies. What's more- Winky hasn't 
left the house.

4. They know each other  from when they were in training.
The Concept: There is a training institute where they met and became 
friends

Why it's unlikely to be true:
That would be a significantly long time ago. And besides, Dobby seems 
a little bit outcast in the house-elf community, so I hardly think 'I-
love-enslavement' Winky would socialise with him. Winky's mother and 
her mother's mother all worked for the Crouches (GoF, Chapter 
21, "The House-Elf Liberation Front."), surely that would be a more 
likely training program.  

5. They know each other because they once both worked for the same 
family.
The Concept: If they family was killed or imprisoned during the VWI 
then they would have to be relocated. They therefore wouldn't suffer 
the 'indignity' of being set free, but still have to find new 
employment.

Why it can't be true:
Winky explicitly says she has worked for the Crouches her entire 
life. "'I is looking after the Crouches all my life, and my mother is 
doing it before me, and my grandmother is doing it before her.'" 
(GoF, Chapter 21, "The House-Elf Liberation Front.") Then perhaps 
Dobby worked for them too, but was relocated? George says this about 
house-elves: "House elves come with big old mansions and castle and 
places like that, you wouldn't catch one in our house."  (CoS, 
Chapter 2, "Dobby's Warning") It sounds as though the house-elf comes 
with the house. Dobby also says (in the same chapter) "'The wizard 
family Dobby serves, sir ... Dobby is a house-elf - bound to serve 
one house and one family forever ...'" He also makes it clear that he 
is bound to the property as well as the family. Also of note- When 
Dobby is freed with Winky and looking for work together Winky 
says "Where is there enough work for two house-elves?" Dobby's answer-
 "Hogwarts!" So, it sounds as though it's uncommon for families to 
have more than one elf- only large institutions do.

6. Winky and Dobby met through Crouch and Malfoy's work relationship.
The Concept:
They both work at the Ministry. There is suggestion that one takes 
their house-elf with them. (CoS, Chapter 18, "Dobby's Reward." - 
Dobby follows Lucius to Hogwarts).

Why it can't be true:
Winky's priorities lie at home being carer and keeper for Barty 
Crouch, Jnr not with Crouch Snr. (And, the same point again, she 
hasn't left for years). (And anyway, is there actually any proof that 
Lucius works at the ministry, or is there only suggestion???)

7. Business meetings of some description between Crouch and Malfoy.
The Concept:
Barty is hosting business meetings at his home which Lucius is 
attending, and he's bringing his slave with him, letting Dobby and 
Winky meet on Winky's home turf.

Why is can't be true:
Bartemus Crouch Snr "despises and detests the Dark Arts" and has 
purges everything in his life that could relate him to anything Dark- 
his son, Winky. I hardly think he'd associate in any way with 
publically-believed-to-be-a-Death-Eater-(even-if-he-was-never-
convited) Lucius Malfoy (and would tell his servants to do the same). 
Besides, Barty has got his son hidden in the house- he can't risk 
anyone finding out. (Bertha Jonkins is there for half a second and 
she stumbles across it...). 

8. They're related.
It still requires some kind of social interaction, which Dobby 
wouldn't have been allowed (And is extremely boring...).

9. They're in love. (?) Or they're involved in a house-elf breeding 
program. (Well, there has to be some way of house-elves reproducing, 
and the "House-Elf Dating Service" is hardly to be likely, when house-
elf aren't meant to have fun :D )

Why it's a stupid theory: (not that that wasn't already obvious...)
Well, if there's a breeding program, then, they still wouldn't be in 
such close and frequent interaction. It's be a one time thing, yes?

10. Lucius is actually good. 
The Concept:
He's just pretending to be bad. Crouch Snr knows this and has been 
inviting him over for tea.

Why it can't be true: 
Umm... Do I even need to attempt to list all the reasons why he's a 
racist, prejudiced, vicious git? Besides, even if he was good, the 
public doesn't know that, so Barty still has his reputation at stake.

11. Barty Crouch Snr was actually evil.
The Concept:
He invites Lucius over for tea to talk dirty about the Dark side, 
hence letting Dobby and Winky become well acquainted. Barty was just 
pretending to be so against the Dark side to win public support to 
become Minister for Magic, with the full intention of releasing all 
the Death-Eaters he sent to Azkaban. Consider these extracts from 
what Sirius says (GoF, Chapter 27, "Padfoot Returns"):
He describes him as "'He's a great wizard Barty Crouch, powerfully 
magical - and power-hungry.'" Power-hungry being my point. Sounds 
like the type to be seduced by the Dark side. Sirius also 
says: "'Barty Crouch was always very outspoken against the Dark side. 
But then a lot of people who were against the Dark side ...'" Is it 
meant to be foreshadowing his true evilness, or just a subtle 
foreshadowing that he's not *entirely* good? Also, consider this line 
(from the same chapter- said by Sirius): "He [Moody] was tough, but 
he never descended to the level of the Death-Eaters. Crouch, 
though ... he's a different matter ..." Now that's nice foreshadowing 
if he *is* a Death-Eater. (or was... He is now, dead...) 

Why it's unlikely to be true:
Things Barty Crouch, Snr did in his ascent to power in the ministry: 
(all stated by Sirius in same chapter as above)
- 'Started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's 
supporters.' 
- 'Aurors were given new powers- powers to kill rather than capture, 
for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to 
the Dementors without trial.'
- 'Crouch fought violence with violence and authorised the use of the 
Unforgivable Curses against suspects.'
Killing Voldemort's supporters? Hardly sounds like someone who was 
actually one and was going to release them all once he was in power- 
you can't release dead people. If he was evil, why didn't he let his 
son seek out Voldemort? (He can't be a 'reformed-evil' type, as Winky 
and Dobby need a current up to date relationship, not one more than a 
decade past.). Besides, Barty Crouch Jnr hates his father. If he were 
truly evil, wouldn't he adore him? 

12. Dobby and Winky are spies for a common source. 
The Concept:
House-elves can apparate into places wizards can't. They get to know 
intimate secrets of their owners. Pretty good position to be in for a 
spy. 

Why it's *highly* unlikely. 
Because Winky is devoted to Crouch, and Dobby definitely considered 
the Malfoys to be his masters, so followed his orders. If they were 
spies, they were *really bad* at it. Winky goes to tears and gets 
drunk when she's separated from the Crouches- she too devoted to 
betray them. And even after Dobby was freed for more than a year, he 
still has trouble speaking ill of the Malfoys, as much as he hated 
them. (GoF, Chapter 21). 

13. Barty Crouch Snr is a double-agent. 
The Concept:
He's pretending to be on Lucius's side to gain inside knowledge. He's 
been inviting him over to chat etc letting Dobby and Winky meet. When 
catching the Death-Eaters, Crouch knew he would never be able to 
catch them all. So he purposely let Lucius go free so he could 
monitor the Death-Eater activities. He told the evil side he was 
implementing all the violent punishments to gain public supports, and 
would let off people once he was in power. If Dumbledore's in on it, 
it would explain why Crouch Snr trust him so much (he runs straight 
to Dumbledore once he's escaped from Voldemort holding him under 
house-arrest.)

Why it's unlikely be true.
He openly despises the Dark Arts. Passionately. "'And I trust you 
remember the many proofs I have given over a long career, that I 
despise and detest the Dark Arts.'" It'd be hard to convince him to 
do it- his reputation is what's important to him, not justice. 
(Handing people over to the Dementors without trial is hardly 
justice. Neither is using the Unforgivable Curses on suspects. Etc.) 

(But then again, if it was all a subterfuge)

14. Lucius cut Bartemus a deal to keep him out of Azkaban.
The Concept: Lucius paid Barty off to stay out of Azkaban. Either by 
bribery or blackmail. Therefore Lucius (with Dobby) have to make 
regular visits to the Crouch household to install payments of 
reinstate pressure not to talk. Crouch Snr certainly is corruptible- 
he let's his son out of Azkaban, and lies to the whole wizarding 
world about it.

Why it's unlikely to be true:
Because there's no way Bartemius Crouch would let anything get in the 
way of his career!  (Although, let's say that Lucius was blackmailing 
Crouch Snr about his *son* being alive...)

15. The Crouches and the Malfoys are related. (my personal favourite).
The Concept:
Think of it like this- Mrs Crouch and Narcissa Malfoy are actually 
sisters. Narcissa goes over to visit her sister, and after her death, 
to visit her brother-in-law. OR Narcissa Malfoy is actually Narcissa 
Crouch. OR Mrs Coruch was actually Miss Malfoy (sister to Lucius). 
That would enable the two families to get to know each other, and 
therefore the house-elves.
Both families are 'old-wizarding families,' Mrs Crouch only desribed 
as having 'wispy' hair- is she too blonde like the Malfoys??

16. It's a flint. JKR didn't realise that when she wrote Winky and 
Dobby as knowing each other that that also incriminated the Crouches 
and Malfoys as knowing each other as well.

*Note: On the nature of Dobby and Winky's relationship.

--They are obviously good friends.
Winky offers Dobby advice on what to do with his freedom (find a 
family settle down). 
She's concerned for his well-being- saddened by his "misfortune."
Dobby was going to visit Winky.

--We don't know when they met. 
BUT, it was pretty much *before* Dobby was freed. How do I infer 
this? Well. Dobby "travelled the countryside fro two whole years, 
sir, trying to find work." (GoF, 21). And then he says delightedly he 
went "to visit Winky, and finds out Winky has been freed, too!" How 
is Dobby going to become friends with a stranger called Winky who 
won't leave the house because of her duties? They need to be friends 
beforehand.
After Dobby is freed he visits Winky. But, he could just apparate on 
in whenever he felt like it, without any regard for pre-existing 
relationships between their masters.

--We do (roughly) know how house-elves are viewed by wizards, at 
different social and political stages of history (ie. During the 
Voldemort wars, after the Voldemort wars). 
By this I mean that during Voldemort's power days they were treated 
like vermin, but after his defeat the lifestyles have improved. It's 
not really relevant in any of the points I have to make, but it's 
pretty much fact if you were considering it.

--We know Dobby and Winky have kept in contact after Dobby was sacked.
Because Winky knows he's sacked, and his attitude towards it. This 
doesn't really raise any concerns, as covered above.

--We know that Dobby knows where Winky lives.
Well, he chooses to visit her.

--We know that Dobby could find Winky after he heard she was sacked.
After he finds out she's free he finds her. Seeing as she was 
dismissed at the Quidditch World Cup she's on her own pretty much 
straight away.

--We know that they keep in contact fairly regularly.
Winky says "But I knows Dobby too, sir!" Knows. Sounds current.
"But Dobby talks of you all the time, sir!" She said, lowering her 
hands very slightly awestruck." Awestruck. If she's awestruck she's 
obviously heard a lot. To hear a lot, she must have spoken with Dobby 
a lot. She's up to date with Dobby's well-being. She knows he's been 
freed. She knows what he's been up to with that freedom. 

Well. That's all I could come up with. What does it all mean????? 
Tell me!!!!!!!

If either number 13 or 14 are true it provides future plot usage for 
both Dobby and Winky. They know their master's secret. They are the 
key, so to speak. Once recovered and willing to divulge these secrets 
they can provide intrinsic and unique inside information on the Dark 
side. Like, proof of people's Death-Eaterness and stuff. 
Alternatively, if they are just cousins, then there's no foreseeable 
use for them anymore. 

If number 15 is true, then maybe the Crouches will come back into it. 
(Which should please Elkins :) )


Whew! Well, that was very long wasn't it!

~<(Laurasia)>~