Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions)

[nobodysrib]

No: HPFGUIDX 54291

This post deals with the following two quotes:

Lupin's dialogue (snipped into a monologue) about looking at the 
Marauder's map on the timeturner night in PoA:

> "I was watching [the map] carefully this evening, because I had an 
> idea that you, Ron, and Hermione might try and sneak out of the 
> castle to visit Hagrid before his hippogriff was executed. <snip> I 
> watched you cross the grounds and enter Hagrid's hut.  Twenty 
> minutes later, you left Hagrid, and set off back toward the 
> castle.  But you were now accompanied by somebody else. <snip>  I 
> couldn't believe my eyes.  I thought the map was malfunctioning.  
> How could he be with you? <snip> And then I saw another dot, moving 
> fast toward you, labeled /Sirius Black/... I saw him collide with 
> you; I watched as he pulled the two of you into the Whomping 
> Willow." PoA US Hardcover, page 348

Snape looking at the map, the same evening:

> "Lying on your [Lupin's] desk was a certain map.  One glance at it 
> told me all I needed to know.  I saw you running along this 
> passageway and out of sight." PoA US Hardcover page 358

Also, a portion of Hollydaze's amazing PoA chronology (found on the 
Lexicon) may be helpful:

> 8:55 Harry, Ron and Hermione go to Hagrid's, Harry and Hermione 2 
> are waiting in Cupboard. (From the book) 
> 9:05 Harry, Ron and Hermione arrive at Hagrid's, Harry and Hermione 
> 2 just behind them. 
> 9:20 Hagrid sees the committee leaving the school. 
> 9:25 Harry, Ron and Hermione leave, The committee arrive, Harry and
> Hermione 2 hide behind a tree. (From the book) 
> 9:26 McNair looks out of Hagrid's window. 
> 9:28 Harry and Hermione 2 rescue Beaky and are behind the tree 
> again. 
> 9:30 Scabbers has escaped, Committee in Hagrid's hut, Harry and 
> Hermione 2 + Beaky are hidden behind tree. 
> 9:31 Ron catches Scabbers, Sirius turns up as a Dog. 
> 9:32 Sirius drags Ron into the Whomping Willow. 
> 9:34 Harry and Hermione 1 follow Sirius and Ron. 
> 9:34 Committee go back up to school. 
> 9:39 Committee back inside the school. 
> 9:41 Lupin "sprints" out of the front doors. 
> 9:42 Lupin is inside the Whomping Willow. 
> 9:42 Hagrid leaves his hut. 
> 9:45 Hagrid arrives at the school front doors. 
> 9:47 Snape leaves the school. 
> 9:48 Snape arrives at the willow, picks up cloak and finds stick 
> then enters. 
> 9:52 (APROX) Sirius, Ron and Peter arrived in the Shrieking Shack. 
> 9:54 (APROX) Crookshanks, Harry and Hermione 1 arrive in the 
> Shrieking Shack. 

onto the show...

Gina wrote:

> I have a question about the map myself.  Can it see double? 
> [reminder of Snape looking at the map in the above passage] 
> So, wouldn¹t Snape then see TWO Hermiones and Harrys on the map?
 

Nope.  When Snape saw the map, HRH, Lupin, etc. were all in the 
passageway at this time (HRH first, Lupin trailing them by aprox. 
eight minutes), and TT!HH (time turner Harry and Hermione) were over 
by Hagrid's.  The passageway "goes off the map" (PoA US Hardcover 
336), and Snape sees Lupin in the passageway and "dissappearing" off 
the map.  This means that in the brief moment that he glanced at the 
map, HRH (being further along that Lupin) would already be off of the 
map as well, so TT!HH would be the only "HRH" to appear on the map.  
In addition, since Snape only glanced at the map *and* was 
specifically looking for Lupin, he may not have even paid attention 
to TT!HH showing up over by Hagrid's hut.

Annemehr wrote: 

> [The map] apparently shows nothing of the inside of Hagrid's hut 
> (as inferred by Lupin's words that he watched the trio enter the 
> hut, and then later saw them leave, but now they were accompanied 
> by Pettigrew).

First, I'm going to comment on Lupin seeing HRH and TT!HH on the 
map.  He watches HRH enter the hut.  At this point in time, TT!HH are 
following behind HRH - and this is a path that shows up on the map.  
TT!HH don't hide behind the tree until after HRH are in the hut.  So, 
assuming that TT!people show up on the map, Lupin would have had to 
have seen all five names.

BUT Lupin notes that he "couldn't believe [his] eyes" and that 
he "thought the map was malfunctioning" (re: seeing Pettigrew on the 
map) - so perhaps seeing HRH and TT!HH on the map was also assumed to 
be a malfunction.  (Like when you have poor television reception and 
see "shadows" of the images in the background.) 

Another explanation is that TT!people don't show up on the map at 
all.  The map can see through anigami, invisibility cloaks, and 
polyjuice potions, but that doesn't mean it can see through all 
magical disguises.  We know that MWPP would find it useful for 
cloaked and animagi-ed folks to show up on the map.  And perhaps they 
also experimented with polyjuice and programmed it on the map as 
well.  But they may not have had access to a time turner and thus 
didn't program that into the map...  The map is programmed to show a 
person's physical location, but it may not be programmed to "read" 
the existence of one person being in two different physical locations 
at the same time.  To deal with this, it ends up showing only one of 
the people, the more dominant presence, which would be the one that 
was initially on the map and not the other one that appeared on the 
map "out of nowhere"?  Just a thought.

Secondly, re: the map showing inside of Hagrid's hut.  According to 
the chronology, Lupin waits until after the Committee has come and 
gone to race down to HRH & co.  He excludes this information when 
describing what he saw on the map, but we know that the Committee 
members would have at least shown up on the map when entering and 
leaving the hut, and then entering the castle.  Lupin's omission of 
this information does not mean that he did not see them on the map; 
Lupin's omission of seeing HRHW in the hut also doesn't mean he 
didn't see Wormtail then.  Perhpas he important info that Lupin needs 
to express here is that a fourth party joined HRH.  So the divisive 
point was before and after being in the hut, so he focused on that?

Although, if he saw Wormtail in the hut, it's strange that, in his 
dialogue, his surprise is expressed after HRHW leave the hut, and not 
when the hut (and Wormtail) are first seen on the map.  Distracted by 
the map "malfunctioning" and showing TT!HH?  Curiouser and 
curiouser...

Annemehr wrote: 

> Actually, I don't think *anyone* ever saw the timeturned Harry and 
> Hermione on the Marauder's map.  Here's my reasoning:
> 
> I don't believe that the map shows anything in the forbidden forest

Interesting point.  In order for something to be on the map, it has 
to have been mapped out by MWPP - so in order to have the Forbidden 
Forest (FF) on the map, MWPP would have had to have explored it.  
Initially I didn't find this plausible, but then I remembered that 
animagi!MWPP could have explored anywhere they wanted to.  I can't 
really imagine them staying away from an out-of-bounds area, 
especially when they have their animal-protection.  So that makes me 
think the FF *is* on the map.  

The same logic applies to the previous topic of Hagrid's hut, as 
well.  This is purely speculation, but since MWPP apparrently were 
interested in exploration (and they had the invisibility cloak to 
help them out), I'd just assume that they would sneak into Hagrid's 
hut to check it out (for curiosity) and to make the map as complete 
as possible (because if you're going to the trouble of creating a map 
to aid in mischief, you might as well go all out and put everything 
on there that you possibly can.)

On the other hand, Lupin says "then" he sees Black racing to Ron and 
Pettigrew... which leads me to believe he did not see Black on the 
map prior to that...  the the "Sirius Black" dot appeared from off of 
the map, racing towards HRH...  which means that Black came from an 
area that was *not* mapped out *but* was also close enough to see Ron 
and Wormtail.  In the dark.  Unless dogs have better vision than I'm 
aware of, that means that at least part of the FF (that is close to 
the edge of the FF and therefore more "map-able") must *not* be on 
the map.  Perhaps the FF has magical qualities that guards it?  

It's forbidden from students for a reason - powerful creatures, from 
centaurs and unicorns (PS/SS) to the huge spider (CoS) live in the 
forest.  (Don't have SS with me, but I'm positive there's a quote in 
there that better describes the forest in the chapter where they 
discover the unicorn blood during their detention...)  But we don't 
know what it is about the FF that draws magical creatures to it.  
Could it be that the FF has magical qualities that make it an 
appealing dwelling place for magical creatures?  Or, conversly, could 
it be that the magical creatures in the forest create (either by mere 
existence or specific spells, etc.) a bubble of protection that keeps 
the forest - and therefore them, as well - from being tracked, and 
therefore from appearing on the map?  (hmmm... but does the map show 
magical creatures in addition to showing people?...)

So the questions I'm left with are:

* If the map doesn't show TT!people, then who else could sneak onto 
it, unnoticed, in the future?  Is this something to be on the look 
out for?

* If the map does show TT!people, then why was Lupin not surprised by 
this?  (cough, cough, could this somehow be relevant to an Evil!
Lupin? cough, cough)  Did MWPP use a TT once??  

* What could MWPP have done with polyjuice?  Sneak into the girls' 
dorm to overhear Lily?  Masquerade as Snape to get him in trouble?

* What's up with the FF?  What kind of deep magic could it hold?

* If the FF is protected from being shown on the map, what about 
other magical places?  When Harry was in the pensieve, did he appear 
as being in Dumbledore's office (literally inside the pensieve) or 
was the pensieve more of a portal that transferred him to a place 
where Dumbledore's thoughts and memories could be lived out?  If 
Harry enters a magical room on the Hogwarts grounds, will it show up 
on the map?  Could MWPP have mapped out *all* of Hogwarts?  Even 
Dumbledore said there are rooms that he has never seen before or only 
sees at dawn, etc. - do those rooms show up on the map?

* Mrs. Norris has shown up on the map (GoF US Hardcover 466) - does 
that mean that magical creatures show up on the map (which means that 
Crookshanks would show up, and that the map would be a great help if 
HRH ever find themselves back in the FF) OR is this further evidence 
that Mrs. Norris really is more than she appears to be?

* Should we be on the lookout for Neville's toad showing up on the 
map?

Ahck.  It's so great when questions lead to questions...  but it 
would be nice to have questions lead to answers, too.


- Nobody's Rib (who's got a theory - it could be witches.  Which is 
ridiculous, 'cos witches they were persecuted, wicca good, and love 
the earth, and women power, and I'll be over here...)