Can the Marauder's Map be deceived? (and more questions)

[annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 54309

This is turning into a really good discussion!

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nobodysrib" <nobodysrib at y...> 
wrote:
> This post deals with the following two quotes:
> 
> Lupin's dialogue (snipped into a monologue) about looking at the 
> Marauder's map on the timeturner night in PoA:
> 
> > "I was watching [the map] carefully this evening, because I had an 
> > idea that you, Ron, and Hermione might try and sneak out of the 
> > castle to visit Hagrid before his hippogriff was executed. <snip> 

Annemehr:
Yes, and notice that Luping was watching the map *specifically* to see 
if HRH would go to see Hagrid, so he was looking for them to appear 
between the castle and Hagrid's.  Remember this for later.

<snip> 
> Also, a portion of Hollydaze's amazing PoA chronology (found on the 
> Lexicon) may be helpful:
> 
> > 8:55 Harry, Ron and Hermione go to Hagrid's, Harry and Hermione 2 
> > are waiting in Cupboard. (From the book) 
> > 9:05 Harry, Ron and Hermione arrive at Hagrid's, Harry and 
Hermione 
> > 2 just behind them.

Annemehr:
But this last bit of the chronology is misleading you, I think.  I was 
looking at the book itself last night, and this is what I found:

(From ch. 21, "Hermione's Secret")
[TT!HH are waiting in the cupboard and hear HRH leave the castle in 
the invisibility cloak. Then TT!HH discuss what the TT is and what 
they are supposed to do, while HRH are making their way to Hagrid's.  
TT!HH decide what they must do and leave the castle:]

'"If anyone's looking out of the window --" Hermione squeaked, looking 
up at the castle behind them.
"We'll run for it," said Harry determinedly.  "Straight into the 
forest, all right?  We'll have to hide behind a tree or something and 
keep a lookout --"
"Okay, but we'll go around by the greenhouses!" said Hermione 
breathlessly.  "We need to keep out of sight of Hagrid's front door, 
or we'll see us!  We must be nearly at Hagrid's by now!"
Still working out what she meant, Harry set off at a sprint, Hermione 
behind him.  They tore across the vegetable gardens to the 
greenhouses, paused for a moment behind them, then set off again, fast 
as they could, skirting around the Whomping Willow, tearing toward the 
shelter of the forest....
Safe in the shadows of the trees, Harry turned around; seconds later, 
Hermione arrived beside him, panting.
"Right," she gasped.  "We need to sneak over to Hagrid's.... Keep out 
of sight, Harry...."
They made their way silently through the trees, keeping to the very 
edge of the forest.  Then, as they glimpsed the front of Hagrid's 
house, they heard a knock upon his door.  They moved quickly behind a 
wide oak trunk and peered out from either side....'

So you see that TT!HH took a *different route* across the grounds than 
HRH did, *and* that they arrived under the eaves of the forest and 
then had time to  move through the trees to a spot where Hagrid's door 
was visible *before* HRH knocked on it.  So if Lupin was watching HRH 
intently, he would not notice TT!HH moving off to the side, and then 
they were in the forest.

 
<snip rest of chronology>
<snip part about HRH being off the map by the time Snape looked>

nobodysrib wrote:
> Annemehr wrote: 
> 
> > [The map] apparently shows nothing of the inside of Hagrid's hut 
> > (as inferred by Lupin's words that he watched the trio enter the 
> > hut, and then later saw them leave, but now they were accompanied 
> > by Pettigrew).
> 
> First, I'm going to comment on Lupin seeing HRH and TT!HH on the 
> map.  He watches HRH enter the hut.  At this point in time, TT!HH 
are 
> following behind HRH - and this is a path that shows up on the map. 
 
> TT!HH don't hide behind the tree until after HRH are in the hut.  
So, 
> assuming that TT!people show up on the map, Lupin would have had to 
> have seen all five names.

Annemehr:
See above -- that TT!HH were not *behind* HRH but ran around a 
different way to the forest, and got there before HRH got to Hagrid's.
So, while they were visible on the map, they were not near HRH and 
thus might well not be noticed.

<snip>

nobodysrib wrote: 
> Another explanation is that TT!people don't show up on the map at 
> all.  The map can see through anigami, invisibility cloaks, and 
> polyjuice potions, but that doesn't mean it can see through all 
> magical disguises.

Annemehr:
But the Timeturner is not a form of magical disguise, it is a way of 
being two places at once.  It's my opinion that TT!People do show up 
on the map.

nobodysrib wrote:
  We know that MWPP would find it useful for 
> cloaked and animagi-ed folks to show up on the map.  And perhaps 
they 
> also experimented with polyjuice and programmed it on the map as 
> well.  But they may not have had access to a time turner and thus 
> didn't program that into the map...  The map is programmed to show a 
> person's physical location, but it may not be programmed to "read" 
> the existence of one person being in two different physical 
locations 
> at the same time.  To deal with this, it ends up showing only one of 
> the people, the more dominant presence, which would be the one that 
> was initially on the map and not the other one that appeared on the 
> map "out of nowhere"?  Just a thought.

Annemehr:
I wonder if it might be simpler than this -- that they used a spell to 
make the map that locates and identifies whatever people are there, 
and this spell was just something that locates them all (like a 
magical radar) and indentifies them on the map, not that MWPP 
specifically programmed the map to recognize people under certain 
conditions.  I have no way of knowing, of course.

<snip nobodysrib's musing on whether the map can see into Hagrid's -- 
I still believe it can't, but that's just my opinion...>

nobodysrib wrote:
> Annemehr wrote: 
> 
> > Actually, I don't think *anyone* ever saw the timeturned Harry and 
> > Hermione on the Marauder's map.  Here's my reasoning:
> > 
> > I don't believe that the map shows anything in the forbidden 
forest
> 
> Interesting point.  In order for something to be on the map, it has 
> to have been mapped out by MWPP - so in order to have the Forbidden 
> Forest (FF) on the map, MWPP would have had to have explored it.  
> Initially I didn't find this plausible, but then I remembered that 
> animagi!MWPP could have explored anywhere they wanted to.  I can't 
> really imagine them staying away from an out-of-bounds area, 
> especially when they have their animal-protection.  So that makes me 
> think the FF *is* on the map.

Annemehr:
This is true -- they probably did go into the FF a lot.  But, could 
they do it while making the map?  My idea of how they made the map is 
that they carried the actual parchment with them all over Hogwarts 
while using whatever magic it was they used, to make it bit by bit, so 
to speak.  I also think, since the map is activated with a wand, that 
they did this with their wands, and so needed to be in their human 
forms at the time (and under James' cloak, so they wouldn't be 
spotted).  In other words, they did not just sit down in the common 
room and *draw* the map, they made it by carrying it all over Hogwarts 
and *taught* it.  So, if they never took it into Hagrid's house, it 
didn't get mapped, and if they never wanted to go into the FF in human 
form, that didn't get mapped either (and they probably figured they 
didn't really need that part, anyway, as they probably only went there 
as animals).  Pure speculation, of course, but I like it...
  
<snip>

nobodysrib wrote: 
> On the other hand, Lupin says "then" he sees Black racing to Ron and 
> Pettigrew... which leads me to believe he did not see Black on the 
> map prior to that...  the the "Sirius Black" dot appeared from off 
of 
> the map, racing towards HRH...  which means that Black came from an 
> area that was *not* mapped out *but* was also close enough to see 
Ron 
> and Wormtail.  In the dark.  Unless dogs have better vision than I'm 
> aware of, that means that at least part of the FF (that is close to 
> the edge of the FF and therefore more "map-able") must *not* be on 
> the map.  Perhaps the FF has magical qualities that guards it?

Annemehr:
Hmmm... I don't know.  It does seem to fit with FF being off the map, 
though...  
<snip>

nobodysrib wrote: 
> So the questions I'm left with are:
> 
> * If the map doesn't show TT!people, then who else could sneak onto 
> it, unnoticed, in the future?  Is this something to be on the look 
> out for?

Annemehr:
Well, I do think TT!People show up, but on the other hand, the map 
probably couldn't be infallible -- maybe someone will find a way to 
defeat it sometime.

> 
> * If the map does show TT!people, then why was Lupin not surprised 
by 
> this?  (cough, cough, could this somehow be relevant to an Evil!
> Lupin? cough, cough)  Did MWPP use a TT once??

Annemehr:
No Evil!Lupin!  Anyway, you all know I don't think he did see them... 
 
> 
> * What could MWPP have done with polyjuice?  Sneak into the girls' 
> dorm to overhear Lily?  Masquerade as Snape to get him in trouble?

Annemehr:
Do we know that MWPP have any personal experience with polyjuice?  
*We* know the map shows Polyjuiced people's true identities from GoF, 
but does it say that MWPP know that?  Other than Lupin saying that the 
map never lies?

> 
> * What's up with the FF?  What kind of deep magic could it hold?

You got me! ;)
<snip rest of questions to which I have no answers...>

> - Nobody's Rib (who's got a theory - it could be witches.  Which is 
> ridiculous, 'cos witches they were persecuted, wicca good, and love 
> the earth, and women power, and I'll be over here...)

Annemehr:
You know, I've been thinking -- nobodysrib, that's a cool name!

Annemehr