Fawkes: His Age, His Name and the Timing of Ollivander's Wand Production

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 54312

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, martin.soilleux-cardwell at a... wrote:
> Phyllis wrote:
> 
> >>In Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them, JKR tells us that
> >>the "phoenix lives to an immense age as it can regenerate,
> >>bursting into flames when its body begins to fail and rising 
> >>again from the ashes as a chick" (p. 32).
> 
> Steve (bboy_mn) replied:
> >The 300 to 500 year lifespan of a Phoenix is the lifespan of a 
> >single lifecycle. That same Phoenix might go through dozens of 
> >lifecycles.
> >
> >This current lifecycle was started in CoS (I think) making Fawkes
> >about three years old. 
> 
> I respond: (Martin)
> 
> I disagree. JKRs comment implies the phoenix lives to "an immense 
> age" *because of* it's ability to regenerate, not that it has 
> immense individual life spans  We do not know how long a phoenix's 
> individual life spans are, but they may be quite short, perhaps 
> only a few years or decades. 


bboy_mn:
While JKR's mythology of the Phoenix many not match history perfectly,
it is still based on the standard mythology of the common Phoenix. How
can the most common age of a Phoenix lifecycle of 500 years be
considered an 'immense age' when wizards themselves appear capable of
living to over 200 years old? On that scale to qualify as 'immense',
it would have to live many thousands of years. 

The most common reference to a Phoenix single lifecycle span is 500
years, although, you also come across- 100, years, 540 years, 1000
years, 1461 years, and in one and only one rare case it is listed as
12.994 years based on a cyclical precise re-alignment of the planets.
Those same digits are sometimes shown as 12,994 years. 

The accepted standard is that a Phoenix has both a long lifecycle (500
years) and an immensely long total lifetime (many many thousands of
years).


> Martin continues:
> Dumbeldore's comment to Harry that he was sorry Harry had to see him
> on a burning day strongly implies that Dumbledore has seen him on a 
> burning day. 
> 

bboy_mn:
You say 'stongly implies'; I say vaguely implies. Dumbledore could
just as easily have been basing that statement on general knowledge of
 Phoenixes, or on the experience of having seen another Phoenix burn,
or more likely based on the fact that before Fawkes burned he was
molting and generally looking pretty ragged. He wouldn't have had to
see Fawkes burn before because he could see on that very day, that
Fawkes looked bad. So the comparison could have been Fawkes'
appearance on a normal day vs appearance that day just before he burned.


> Martin:
> From the interview it seems JKR named him Fawkes as a link to Guy 
> Fawkes. Guy Fawkes died in 1606 inferring that Fawkes the phoenix 
> can be no older than about 387 years (if CoS is set around 1993). 
>

bboy_mn:
The name Fawkes is a lot older than Guy Fawkes and has it origins in
the name Faux (also: Fox, Foxx, Foxe, Faix, Fauks, Fawks, Fawkes,
Fowkes, Fochs, Focks, Foks, Foux, Fowks). Also, the name Fawkes is
another bit of JKR naming irony, just as she named a dog animagus
after the dog star Sirius, and Remus after a boy raised by wolves.
This is something in the real world between JKR and her readers. There
is no indication in the fictional world of the book, that Fawkes was
named after Guy Fawkes. 

> Martin:
> 
> Remember that JKRs lifespan of a phoenix does not have to agree 
> with their supposed lifespans given elsewhere in folklore.
> 

bboy_mn:

True but JKR's mythology is still based on standard mythology even if
she doesn't adhere to it completely. There are very few mythical
elements that are uniquely her creation. 

> Martin:
> 
> Much to my annoyance this dismantles the interesting theory that 
> Fawkes could be Godric Griffindor in animagus form.
> 
> Cheers
> Martin 

bboy_mn:

Only if you believe that in the fictional world of the book, Fawkes
was named after Guy Fawkes. Again, that is true in the real life
world, but there is no indication in the ficitonal world of the book
that it's true.

Just some thoughts.

bboy_mn