SHIP: Re: Who is the boy?

[anguaorc]

No: HPFGUIDX 54398

I am going to try to reply to messages from Melissa and Penny in 
tandem.  Here goes:

Melissa:
> One made in anger, based on the tone? That's beautiful?  <shudder> 
> earth could she be angry? Hmmm perhaps because she's just been 
accused AGAIN 
> of betraying Harry.   

Angua:
Umm, I said it *explains* it beautifully.  Why would Hermione say 
something like that?  Because it's what her heart is full of.

Yes, she clearly is angry.  It's funny, though -- usually when people 
are angry their first reaction isn't to order the person who made 
them angry to ask them out on a date.  Hermione does.  One might be 
justified in believing she *wants* Ron to ask her out on a date.  

Penny:
> LOL!  Well, possibly.  I think I'd rely more on the heart being 
true on a day-to-day basis ("Hermioninny talks about you all the 
time") more than a statement made in anger and hurt.  But, that's a 
fair shot.  :--)

Angua:
:-) Thanks!  I believe Hermione's "very often" (not "all the time") 
talk about Harry *does* reveal her heart.  Of course she loves 
Harry!  She is also extremely invested in him doing well in and 
surviving the Triwizard Tournament, to the point of skimping on 
studying to help him practice.  Ron probably talks about Harry "very 
often" as well, and he is also highly invested in Harry winning and 
living.  The problem is in making the leap to a *romantic* love.  

That is certainly a natural mistake for Viktor to make, considering 
those two articles, and all the other things he has seen.  But we, 
the reader, have much more information than Viktor does.  We *know* 
Hermione loves Harry.  But we don't have any indication that she 
likes him "that way."  In fact, we have pretty good indication that 
she likes another boy "that way."

Melissa:
> Except Harry doesn't know exactly WHAT Hermione's been saying to 
Krum. Krum 
> didn't tell him the specifics (purposefully perhaps)? And if Harry 
did know 
> would he be blushing ;-).  .

Angua:
Or would he be saying, "You call twice "very often"!?  Man, you  
really must be the grumpy paranoid jealous type!

My point was that KRUM knows exactly what Hermione's been saying, and 
HE is satisfied by Harry's explanation.  So, I don't think what she 
said would have been too blush-inducing. 

Penny:
> You mean, Viktor, the one who doesn't, as far we know, feel the 
least bit threatened by Ron as a romantic rival?  The Viktor who 
*does* regard Harry as a romantic rival?  The Viktor who is older and 
more experienced in these matters?  Yeah, okay.  I'll trust Viktor -- 
Harry says there's nothing going on and Viktor believes him.  Viktor 
does not apparently show any signs of thinking her other best friend 
is any threat to him though, now does he?  :--)

Angua:
We don't have any evidence that Viktor is experienced in romance; the 
trailing fangirls episodes seem to indicate that he has found his 
fame a barrier to finding a nice girl.  But you are correct -- we 
have no reason to suspect that Viktor thinks Hermione likes Ron.  

But why should he?  Hermione can keep a secret pretty darn well, when 
she's not stung into a screaming fury by Ron.  How is Krum to know 
who Hermione likes?  He thought he had a handle on it -- those 
newspaper articles and the talking and all.  But that seems not to 
be.  Should he go down the list of all the boys Hermione knows, 
looking for the "culprit?"  I don't think so.  He had clear and 
obvious reason to suspect Harry, and he did suspect him.  For all 
Krum knows, Hermione doesn't like anyone.  I don't see any reason for 
him to get suspicious of Ron, unless Hermione was far more careless 
than we've seen her being.

Melissa:
> I've no doubt it was meant as a supportive kiss but why JKR's need 
to draw 
> added (its her only hit-over-the-head-with-a-beater's-bat clue) 
attention to 
> it. 

Angua:
You mean she drew attention to it like this:

"He had no memory of ever being hugged like this, as though by a 
mother"?

JKR is clearly trying to emphasize the dark seriousness of what Harry 
has gone through and what is happening to the wizard world.  
*Everyone* is suddenly touching Harry in new, affectionate ways.  
Bill Weasley claps him on the shoulder.  Fawkes nestles on his lap.  
Sirius holds him by the shoulder throughout his talk with 
Dumbledore.  Molly Weasley hugs him as he's never been hugged 
before.  Hagrid pulls Harry into a one-armed hug and ruffles his 
hair.  Ron claps him on the back, which he's never done before except 
once after a Quidditch game.  Hermione kisses him on the cheek, which 
she's never done before.

Melissa:
> It'd would have been easy enough to write:  "Bye, Harry!," said 
Hermione 
> kissing him on the cheek" --that sounds supportive--  

Angua:
But it doesn't add nearly so well to the ominous atmosphere.  She 
could have written Molly's hug without the emphasis, too, but it's 
better with it.  JKR is telling us how serious this is.

Penny:
> You got it backwards.  She takes a strong dislike to Fleur from the 
start ....... way before she notices Ron's reaction.  She *arguably* 
seems annoyed about Ron's crush on Fleur.  

Angua:
She is "simply furious" about *something*.  It can't be Fleur's 
behavior at that point, because at that time Fleur is behaving 
unexceptionally, even admirably.  

Do you really think Hermione would dislike someone so much for not 
being properly prepared for the Hogwarts chill that she would 
be "simply furious" four months later when this person (for very good 
reason) thanks her friends for their help?

Melissa:
> <JKR has given Hermione several of the little tell-tale signs that 
> <writers give their audiences when a person likes a person as more 
> <than a friend:  
> 
> JKR has also said that she doesn't write to a formula. .its in the 
inteview 
> section at the Leaky Cauldron .. its an audio only.

Angua:
Well, not intentionally.  ;)  She has discussed her *unconscious* use 
of literary traditions:

*******
Now, there are elements in the story that are undoubtedly very 
traditional. In many children's books, you will find the same basic 
pattern that occurs in fairy tales. There are good reasons why fairy 
tales endure. They appeal to us on such a subconscious and emotional 
level. I think you could say many of the same things about Harry. You 
have the changeling, you have the wicked stepparents (even though one 
of them is a blood relative, in Harry's case). You even have an ugly 
brother, in a way. But I certainly did not sit down and think about 
incorporating all of those elements. It all came from inside. 
*******

JKR doesn't reinvent the wheel; she redesigns it.  She uses jealousy 
of a rival to reveal Ron's feelings for Hermione.  Why in the world 
wouldn't she use jealousy of a rival to reveal Hermione's feelings 
for Ron?  In my opinion, she clearly has.

Angua before:
> <<<<She questions Ron indignantly on his preference for inviting 
pretty girls to the Yule Ball.>>>>>>>

Penny:
> Wouldn't you?  Harry doesn't engage in this churlish behavior, so 
I'm not the least surprised that she doesn't express any problems 
with Harry's dating choices.

Angua:
I certainly wouldn't stomp out of the room about it, no.  Or bring it 
up later with malicious glee, when my friend failed to get a date.  
*Ginny* seems to have a problem with Harry's dating choices.  
Hermione doesn't say a word about it or even seem to notice it.

Melissa:
> She doesn't 
> explode at Harry because he had the sense not to draw the Wrath of 
Hermione 
> down upon himself.   I've no doubt that had he been the one rushing 
into No 
> Man's Land he'd be the one getting the earful.

Angua:
I definitely have doubts.  She didn't say a word or make a sound when 
Fred rushes into No Man's Land.  But the deeper question is why did 
*JKR* choose to show Hermione getting her panties all in a twist 
about Ron's dating intentions.  There are really only two possible 
answers:  that she intended to show that Hermione likes Ron, or that 
she intended to *fool us into thinking* that Hermione likes Ron.  
Otherwise, what possible point do those scenes have?  

It seems clear to me that JKR was cleverly writing the whole Yule 
Ball sequence to make it clear to her readers that Ron and Hermione 
*both* like each other, with the maximum of hurt feelings on both 
sides.  Those scenes are *much* richer and funnier if read that way.  
Read the H/H way, frankly, they're a waste of pages.

Melissa:
> Yep they are clues all right. Very obvious clues from a writer who 
seems to 
> delight in planting subtle clues all over her work.   And just 
because 
> they've been seen a thousand times before doesn't mean that the way 
in which 
> they are being applied is the same. 

Angua:
Make up your mind!  If Hermione's dislike of Fleur and anger at Ron 
is perfectly natural for a feminist and has nothing to do with liking 
Ron, or whatever, how can it ALSO be too obvious a clue that she 
likes Ron to be real?  Which are you choosing to argue? - because I 
don't think you can argue both.

Why are the Ron-jealous clues apparently real, but the Hermione-
jealous clues "not subtle enough?"  The Hermione-jealous-of-Padma 
clue is VERY subtle.

Remember, JKR has *said* that the answer to "does Hermione like Ron 
as more than a friend" is in GoF.  If she's given "obvious" clues, 
that would certainly explain her statement.

Melissa:
> Actually JKR hasn't failed, she's cloaked them quite nicely.  

Angua:
So nicely that they don't exist.

Melissa:
> Sort of like 
> the way that Snape/Quirrell seemed to be connected in such a way 
that it 
> looked as though Snape were the guilty party. It was obvious that 
Snape 
> wasn't guilty but not quite so obvious that Quirrell was.

Angua:
And it's obvious that Harry doesn't like Hermione and Ron *does* , 
but it's not quite as obvious that Hermione likes Ron and not Harry.  
Still, the clues are there, just as the clues existed that Quirrell 
was guilty.

Melissa:
> All of those instances of blushing ect you quote also took place 
when Harry 
> was there. 

Angua:
Harry is always there.  But she was talking to Ron.

Melissa:
> As for her not being hurt over his denials. She sounds hurt to me 
> with her "just ignore it/them."  

Angua:
I don't understand this one.  She says that *before* we see Harry 
deny it.

Melissa:
> And she knows (in the all encompassing way 
> that students at Hogwarts seem to know everything) that Cho/Cedric 
are a 
> couple, she's too practical to be jealous of an apparently 
established couple

Angua:
I don't understand this one either.  Are you saying that Hermione 
*would* have been jealous of Cho and disliked her, but didn't bother 
to because Cho was "taken" and therefore not a threat?  This makes no 
sense at all.  For one thing, there was no hint that Cho and Cedric 
were an item when Harry slopped water all over himself and said "they 
make them just fine at Hogwarts."  Second, Hermione has as much 
initial reason to believe that Fleur and Roger Davies are a couple as 
she does to believe that Cho and Cedric are a couple (a Yule Ball 
date), so by that logic she should not experience jealousy of Fleur 
either.  Thirdly, surely no one thinks that Ron had a *chance* with 
Fleur?  Fleur shouldn't have been a threat, but Hermione seems to be 
jealous just because Ron admires her.  The same thing should have 
applied to Cho.

Melissa:
> There's also an interview/article where it states that Harry will 
begin to 
> get more interested in Hermione. I need to look that one up again.  

Angua:
Don't get too excited about that one.  JKR didn't say it.  A reporter 
said it, after viewing the "Harry and Me" special, which didn't 
actually say anything of the sort.  There was even a corrected 
version of this story released a week later, IIRC.

Melissa:
JKR also 
> has stated that she plans things out but leaves room for changes 
AND that 
> Book 5 would be about POA length (I'm glad that changed.  .I like 
long 
> books!)  

Angua:
Wait!  What are you saying?  Are you implying that JKR will change 
her mind about having Hermione end up with Ron and have her end up 
with Harry instead?

If so, you are conceding that the evidence thus far looks like JKR 
intends to write R/H, but clinging to the hope that she'll somehow 
see reason and change her mind.  That's not a really strong debate 
position.

If not, why did you mention it?

Melissa:
> Or perhaps its just a stubborn ability to see though the obvious 
and into the 
> subtle  . . . .something that's definitely a blessing with JKR's 
writing 
> style.   I admit when I first read all 4 books in March of last 
year (hey I 
> just realized its been a year to the week) I definitely saw R/Hr, 
then on 
> reading them I began to compare the way that she's foreshadowed 
them to the 
> way that she foreshadowed everything else major and its just 
doesn't mesh 
> with the writing style she's shown thus far.  

Angua:
Or could it be that she develops relationships *differently* from the 
way she develops her mystery plots?  If an intended relationship 
isn't revealed until the last possible minute, the reader doesn't get 
much fun out of it!  No juicy scenes of misunderstandings and hurt 
feelings and reconciliation, and all that.  That was fine for 
Percy/Penny, but apparently JKR wants to milk R/H for humor.  And it 
has been *very* funny so far.

> Melissa . . what's wrong with romance and eroticism.   

Angua:
Not a thing in the world!  We humans are very fond of it.  That's why 
we have a tendency to see it everywhere -- even where it doesn't 
exist.

Angua (previously):
> <<<<She seems to feel hurt and offended when Ron doesn't ask her 
> except as a last resort.>>>>>>
> 
Penny:
> :::coughs::::  Um, you might want to remind me of your logic on 
that one?  She seems utterly delighted that Ron is dateless and in a 
real fix (serves him right, that cad).  At that point, *she* already 
has a date.  Doesn't seem too hurt and offended to me.  She is 
certain *offended* that he would think she was dateless and sitting 
around waiting on him or anyone else.  Can't blame her there either --
 again, Ron's being a cad.  Since she accepted Krum's invitation, I 
see no evidence that she was sitting around passively pining away for 
Ron or Harry.  So, the above statement seems really a tad strong, 
IMHO.

Angua:
Three indications:
When Hermione says "next time... ask me before somebody else does and 
not as a last resort, it implies that she minded being *asked last* 
not that she minded being assumed to be sitting around dateless.  It 
definitely implies that she minded Ron wanting to ask other girls 
first.

When Hermione says "just because it took *you* three years to notice, 
Ron," it implies that she wanted him to notice sooner.

When Ron says he doesn't want to go with a "troll," the severity of 
her anger hints that she thinks Ron is implying *she's* a troll.  He 
hasn't asked her, so she must be a troll.  I know you don't agree 
with this interpretation, Penny, but it seems clearly implied in the 
text to me, and it explains why she gets so mad, and returns to the 
argument later.

Angua (previously):
> <<<<In an extremity of temper, she demands that 
> Ron ask her to the next Ball.>>>>>>>
>
Penny:
> LOL!  Oh, c'mon.  *Demands*???!  IMHO, she's saying "*If* you ask 
me to the next ball other than as a last resort, I *might* think 
about it."  

Yes, she demands it.  She yells it, with an exclamation mark on the 
end.

"Next time there's a ball, ask me before somebody else does, and not 
as a last resort!"

I wouldn't call that a request or a suggestion.  It sounds like an 
order to me.

Angua (previously):
> <<<She does not blush when talking to Harry about her love 
life,>>>>>>>
> 
Penny:
> Sure she does.  See above.

No.  She blushes when talking about her love life when Harry is 
listening.  She does not blush when talking about her love life *to* 
Harry.  

Angua (previously):
> <<<<<and she does not blush or show signs of embarrassment when her 
name is publicly linked to Harry's or when she publicly kisses 
Harry.>>>>
>
Penny: 
> Of course not ------ she might feel she doesn't stand a chance with 
him and is doing a good job of covering up (slip-up with Krum, of 
course).   

I don't understand.  How would she be able to control her blushes 
there, but not be able to control them when questioned by Ron?  We 
*know* that the Witch Weekly article comes as a complete surprise to 
her, and she amazingly free of embarrassment.  She is more interested 
in giggling at Ron's vocabulary than in squirming at being again 
linked to Harry.

Angua (previously):
> <<<She shows no trace whatsoever of any hurt or disappointment when 
Harry 
> firmly and repeatedly denies that she is his girlfriend.>>>>>>>
> 
Penny:
> I can only think of one time that he does so in her presence and 
that's when he tells Mrs. Weasley.  Of course, maybe it's deliberate 
that JKR didn't pan back to Hermione to show her reaction in that 
instance?  You're right that if JKR wanted, she could have planted a 
clue there.  But, then again, maybe it's authorial misdirection.  
Maybe.  It's possible.

It says in chapter 28 that "Harry was getting sick of telling people 
that Hermione wasn't his girlfriend."  Presumably Hermione was 
present on at least some of those occasions.  But perhaps she blushed 
fire-engine red, and JKR is choosing to keep it a secret from us.

In the Mrs. Weasley incident, one gets the definite impression that 
Hermione is *pleased* when Harry denies the relationship, and Mrs. 
Weasley warms up to her again.  But I'll admit it doesn't 
specifically say so.

Angua (previously):
> <<<<It seems to me that to maintain otherwise is the result of a 
stubborn 
> romanticising and eroticising impulse.>>>>>>>>
> 
Penny:
> Wow.  So, that's what a great number of shippers are guilty of, is 
it?  

Angua:
Well, yes.  I thought that was obvious.  People sexualize and 
romanticize Snape/Harry and Lucius/Ginny and Seamus/Dean and 
Remus/Lily.  I think that's pretty clear evidence of the human 
impulse to eroticise.

Penny:
> You realize that the H/H ship is probably about the same size as 
R/H ship at this point?  All these people are just insane and 
stubborn and unwilling to see the One True Light?  Really?  We all 
have different interpretations.  I don't think the R/H'ers are crazy; 
I just don't agree with them. 

Angua:
No, I don't realize that.  My impression was that many, many more 
people expect R/H to happen than expect H/H to happen.  It is a hard 
question to quantify, but informal polls and scans of media articles, 
etc. tend to bear that out.

I didn't say anything about insane or crazy.  Stubborn, yes.  Many 
people have said they will continue to ship H/H no matter if JKR says 
Ron and Hermione marry and have eight children.  I'd call that 
stubbornness.  :)  

I believe that the impulse to romanticise can be a very strong one, 
and confirmation bias obviously exists in all of us.  I do not 
consider the existence of H/H shippers, even intelligent, well-
educated ones, to be evidence that H/H is a reasonable expectation at 
this point, any more than I consider the existence of intelligent, 
well-educated Harry/Draco shippers (of which there are boatloads) to 
be evidence that H/D is a reasonable expectation.  And there are 
people who are sincerely and devoutly attached to expectations in the 
Harry Potter books that I consider to be utterly bizarre and 
unlikely, *way* more bizarre and unlikely than H/H or H/D.

Penny:
> > I would also note that even if Ron and Hermione pair off in Book 
5, there are 2 more books and a likely epilogue yet to go.    

;p  Who said something about 'stubborn'?


Angua