Slytherin Stereotypes WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's awarding ...

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 57393


> I (Tom) reply:
> IMHO, you're both talking about the same thing from different 
> angles, here.
> 
> Let's try a slightly different tack – when have we seen anyone in 
> *any* of the other houses do anything decent, aside from Cedric's 
> clear decency and fair-play over the Triwizard Tournament in GoF?

Cedric's attempt to replay the Quidditch match where Harry falls.

Cedric's attempts to get his dad to stop bragging like a stupid git 
over the match.

Cho letting Harry down easy.
 
And why not count Ernie MacMillan's apology? It's more than any Slyth 
kid has ever done

> 
> On that note, I'm having trouble understanding exactly what Darrin 
> meant by `decent,' but I'm going to go with a broad definition – I'
> ll consider selfless, friendly, courteous, and upstanding behavior 
as decent.' Sorry - didn't bother to look it up.
> 
> So, I'm not going to count Harry's school saving adventures, 
because 
> IMHO they're cheap instances of `decency,' and surely we can find 
> something better than that. 
> 
> Frankly, I don't really think we've even seen the Trio behave 
> `decently,' a majority of the time, in that they aren't 
> particularly helpful to others (well, Hermione does help Neville 
out  in Potions,) and they aren't particularly friendly or selfless 
with others outside of Gryffindor, even though Harry gets along with 
the Hufflepuffs most of the time. 


Harry helping out Dobby and Hagrid.

Hermione protecting Lupin.

Not just in Potions, but Hermione generally looking out for Neville.
 

> Granted, this isn't a rule, but it's generally how they behave. 
> They're nice kids, but they can be just as rude and mean as the 
> Slytherins we see in canon.

I think the Slyths outdo them. When has a member of the Trio openly 
called for genocide, for instance? Or how about beating up and 
stealing from a weaker kid? (Leg-Locker and Remembrall on Neville.) 
Or participate in a potentially fatal prank during a Quidditch match?

Even the usually  gregarious twins won't acknowledge Cedric when 
they're about to take the Portkey to the Quidditch World Cup, and 
over a defeat in  Quidditch from the prior year? Please.
> 

pg 67: "Everbody said "Hi" back except Fred and George, who merely 
nodded.

That is NOT lack of acknowledgement. Different from the rest, but not 
rude. And let us remember on the next page, Amos behaving like the 
worst Little League Dad in history. Yeah, that's impressive. Your son 
AND A BUNCH OF DEMENTORS beat Harry Potter.

> What Darrin's really asking here is, when has *Harry* seen a Slyth 
> do anything decent? So, it can only be fairly asked: does that 
really  count? Since Harry doesn't hang out with the Slytherins, and 
since  he doesn't like them, either, we can't possibly expect him to 
be looking for or even noticing any hints of possible Slytherin 
virtue. 

I'm not going to argue the negative. If it's not in canon, it doesn't 
exist. Bottom line. All the off-screen stuff is fun to speculate 
about, but the facts remain, the Slyths, so far, are the villains of 
this epic.

So, the imagined scenes about Slyths helping little old witches 
across the street will just have to stay imagined.

> In fact, what seems to be the case is that Harry is more likely to 
> see mildly virtuous behavior and then assume that there something 
> sinister about it. He does this with Snape and Slytherin house 
> constantly.

Mildly virtuous behavior??? I'd settle for that! When?

> What we do see, from time to time, is that the Slytherins do appear 
> to care about each other, and this is what Oryomai, I think, is 
> closer to with her post – the Slytherins don't get a chance to show 
> their, ahem, softer side in front of the whole school, because most 
> of the school doesn't like them. We know this from book one, 
because the whole school is hoping for the seven-year-House-Champions 
to lose. The Slytherins aren't given a chance, not by the other 
> students, the readership, or really, the author herself.

And why doesn't most of the school like them? Because they bully 
their way through Quidditch, have a professor who constantly takes 
points away from the competition, and espouse a pureblood doctrine 
that automatically excludes a good-sized percentage of the other 
houses.


> Later at dinner, we actually see "A large group including Crabbe 
and 
> Goyle was huddled together, deep in conversation." (PoA, Ch.6, 119) 
> 
> This is neat, because we see that there is care for Draco even 
beyond  Pansy and the two goons, there's care enough to spread 
through a `large group.' Of course, Harry suspects them of `cooking 
up their 
> own version' of events, which is just early-teenagerese for `we can 
> do it but no one else can.' Let's be candid here: the trio is 
> constantly cooking up their own version of events.
> 

Pansy does indeed show some concern for Draco, which could be 
interpreted as a decent act. Fair enough. Of course, then it all 
falls apart with the remainder of the "Draco is injured" drama.

They DID cook up their own version of events. Draco, whose injuries 
were healed in a second, milked his injury for all it was worth, 
nearly getting Hagrid fired, an innocent animal executed, and of 
course, earning himself a couple of lab slaves in Harry and Ron.

And of course, backed up and supported by all the Slyths, who knew 
that cuts could be healed very quickly.

Draco's behavior in the class was akin to a kid who had just been 
told not to put his hand in the wood chipper doing it anyway, and 
then blaming the teacher because he didn't listen.



> If you're looking for `decent' behavior, I'd submit that it's not 
> all that fair to demand it of just the Slytherins – let's demand it 
> of everyone equally and across the board. 

I've gotten it from the Gryffs, thank you. And the Hufflepuffs so far 
seem to be all right.


> What we can see from the little bit of Slytherin interaction that 
we do get, is that they're a tightly knit group, and in my judgment, 
> tightly knit groups behave decently with each other most of the 
time.So, it's an inference, but I think it's a fair one.

The SS guards were tightly knit as well. So were the bands of bounty 
hunters that chased runaway slaves. So were the Japanese guards 
marching the soldiers at Bataan. Tightly-knit does not equal good. 



> 
> Darrin wrote:
> And when have I ever said I won't give Slytherin a chance? I have 
> repeatedly said that canon SO FAR has not given us a decent 
> Slytherin. I refuse to call them something other than nasty little 
> brats, based on the facts so far.
> 
> Tom:
> Agreed – they do appear to be nasty little brats, and from an 
> outsider's perspective (as in, not the Trio, not Gryffindor, and 
not the readership or the author) so could HHR be perceived that way.

Not by me. I don't perceive the Trio that way. I perceive them as 
kids who sometimes makes mistakes, but generally want to do the right 
thing. Show me a Slyth that applies.
 
> Let's not get into the number of times Ron has been rude and 
> insulting to others for no obvious reason. The Hufflepuffs appear 
> that was in CoS. And every house takes it out on Harry in GoF. 

And Ron is the first one to apologize in most cases, something we've 
yet to see Draco do. The Hufflepuffs also apologized, and every other 
house was egged on a touch by Slytherin in the beginning and recanted 
in the middle.

> So, what are we talking about here? Kids. And kids are cruel. And I'
> d bet that most of the school is composed of nasty little brats – 
we just happen to like some of the brats more than others. ;-)
>  

Maybe because we can see some of the brats growing up to be good 
solid members of the magic community and we can see others growing up 
to be members of V-Mort's little circle of hate.

Darrin
-- Good is good and bad is bad. Not everything has to be grey