The Diary

[maria_kirilenko]

No: HPFGUIDX 57446

Valky wrote:
> Ok, Maria you have succeeded in animating me :) I think i will take 
> up your gauntlet and have a little wield about, to see if I can't 
> edge your perspective on these things a little closer to mine. 

Maria:
Actually, upon reading your post and thinking things over a bit, I've 
come to the conclusion that we don't really disagree at all. Well, 
maybe a bit over the little things. <g> Namely, Harry.
 
> I am not, per se, "sure" that Dobby wasn't baited by Mr Malfoy.  
Thus 
> causing his pursual of Harry. In fact I am willing to concede that 
it 
> is very likely that he was. Although,.. what is your take on that? 
> Did he bait Dobby to keep Harry away from Hogwarts during that year 
> or was that an unplanned anomaly? 
> Honestly, I dont believe that Lucius wanted Harry to be absent 
during 
> the opening of the Chamber, and, failing any faith in a possibility 
> of Lucius making such an early blunder in his plot, as to have his 
> elf almost prevent Harry attending Hogwarts at all............... 
> I would have to say that two large loopholes just appeared in this 
> other wise applicable argument.  

My take? I also can't see why Lucius would feel the need to trick 
Dobby into warning Harry about his "plans" for Hogwarts. If anything, 
Harry would die, which wouldn't grieve Lucius, I'm sure. OTOH, I can 
easily imagine *Draco* having a little joke and feeding Dobby this 
tidbit of information in hopes of scaring Harry away from the school. 
Do I believe it? Maybe, but I don't think it matters at all.
 
> We haven't seen a cunning Lucius?
> Was it not his cunning that had him placed as the Head of Hogwarts 
> school?
> I see absolutely no reason to believe he has used his power as a 
> Wizard to get him anything, anywhere. I have, however, on numerous 
> occassions, observed that Lucius is notorious for his use of 
trickery 
> and foul play, to make things happen his way in the WW. 
> He bribes and blackmails his way in to positions of power and 
> influence. 

I'm afraid that I've been careless with word choice and confused you. 
When I said "power" in my previous post I meant his political power 
and influence, as well as his position in WW society. IMO the fact 
that he's the head of the Board of Governors (not Head of Hogwarts) 
speaks more of Lucius's wealth and political influence than of his 
cunning. Lucius's "trickery and foul play" can be called cunning only 
if no one is really aware of the fact that he's doing it. I mean, a 
cunning person at least *tries* to be discreet about it, no? 
Everyone, OTOH, as you say, is aware that Lucius is doing all those 
things. But I suppose he's cunning. He's a Slytherin, after all. But 
it amazes me that everyone *knows* the man is a DE, and Voldemort 
*still* calls him "my slippery friend." 

I guess we disagree about definitions.

> It is reasonable to say, we havent seen him use magic yet so how 
can 
> we judge? However, there has been at least one occassion in the 
books 
> where he could have used magic, but, appeared to run like a coward. 
> One would be at the resolution of COS, when Dobby threatened to use 
> magic on him. Did he attempt to continue, beyond the threat of a 
> HouseElf, to do his worst? No, he ran. 

Well, what did you want him to do? Avada Kedavra Harry and/or Dobby, 
like he tried in TCTMNBN II? I found that bit in the movie 
ridiculous. Using an Unforgivable curse on the Boy Who Lived? I mean, 
*honestly*. 

If anything, the scene is proof of the fact that Lucius is good at 
adjusting to different circumstances, which is perfectly in line with 
his other actions. 

Er
 absence of proof is not proof of absence?

> Ok, so you could say we dont have evidence to call him a brilliant 
> mind. However, it doesnt take a brilliant mind to be smooth, 
> confident and premeditating.

Agreed. That was actually my position from the very beginning.

But really, I don't think we can accurately assess Lucius's magical, 
er, skills. I've always read him as a pretty accomplished wizard, 
partially relying on that scene in CoS where he chastises Draco for 
bad grades. I've assumed that "I'd always received excellent grades 
at Hogwarts, better than any Mudblood's" was implied. I also think 
that cursing several families, Lucius's threat to the Board of 
Governors, is also no small feat. But I can see how others might read 
him differently.

However, I think that the fact that we *don't* know exactly how good 
Lucius is speaks a lot about Lucius's means of getting about in the 
WW, and also of his role at Voldemort's side. Lucius doesn't fight. 
He manipulates. He's a politician, pure and simple.

> Why would he use the diary at 'Hogwarts?' to, primarily, bring upon 
> Arthur Weasley? a downfall of his muggle protection act?
> Hogwarts and Wizard homes are very separate things. The Diary 
applied 
> at Hogwarts, the protection act applied in Wizard Homes. How did 
> Lucius correlate the two? I ask. 

It's very simple. Ginny was the one sic'ing the Basilisk on Muggle-
borns. People care about that sort of thing.

<snip excellent arguments>

You know, here's where our disagreement is only superficial. 

What's the number-one item on Lucius's agenda? Ridding the whole WW 
of Muggles and Muggle-born wizards. Weakening Arthur Weasley, the 
biggest (known to us) proponent of Muggles, and his Muggle Protection 
Act is one way of taking a step towards accomplishing his goal. The 
other way is getting rid of Dumbledore, and, consequently, of Muggle-
born students. Lucius killed two birds with one stone. 

The only thing is, we've no way of knowing what was more important to 
Lucius. IIRC, the Muggle Protection Act was only mentioned in the 
very end of CoS, but the Malfoys-hate-Dumbledore drum was being 
beaten throughout the whole book. So, I suppose, the latter is more 
important. Unless it's a red herring. <g> 

Slightly OT, I'm notorious for missing red herrings. I never thought 
that Percy was acting strangely in CoS because of his involvement 
with the Chamber affair. And I never thought that Sirius Black was 
after Harry. I mean, "He's at Hogwarts?" Classic case of Jumping To 
Conclusions.

> I don't think he had 'no' reason to believe that Tom Riddle would 
not 
> take up arms against the famous Harry Potter. My assumption is that 
> he, being a man of wealth, knew he was in possession of a Dark 
Wizard 
> Treasure in that diary. <snip>

Oh, I am sure he knew *exactly* what was in the diary. I am 
absolutely positive that he knew it had belonged to Voldemort 
(there's even canon for that), and that Voldemort was the one who had 
opened the Chamber of Secrets. Hmm, there's canon for that, too, but 
I won't quote it here.

But. I honestly think that Lucius had no reason to believe, or hope, 
that Riddle would target Harry in particular. Why? Well, because 
Dobby, in his two conversations with Harry had never said that Harry 
himself would be in danger. He mentioned numerous times that there 
was a plot to made horrible things happen at Hogwarts, but he hadn't 
once told Harry that there was a plot to kill him. I'm sure that if 
he were aware of it, he'd say so, since he obviously cares about 
Harry a lot. If Lucius's primary motivation, or at least one of his 
main goals, was killing Harry, then I think we can assume that he 
mentioned it at home?
 
> As for Harry being no threat to Lucius.........
<snip>
> In Harry's second year he instigated, what he believed to be a 
> foolproof plot, to pit the inexperienced and incapable Harry 
against 
> the strong and capable Tom Riddle. <snippety snip>
> Of course the diary would come by the hands of some child that 
would 
> gush about the most amazing child of all wizard time being his/her 
> classmate. Its an elementary proposition. Even a dummy like Lucius 
<snip>

What do you mean, some child? Lucius put the diary into Ginny's 
cauldron. If it's just a lucky coincidence that she's the daughter of 
his archenemy, whose Muggle Protection Act is exactly what Lucius 
doesn't need, I'll eat, er, mushrooms. I don't like them.

Honestly, I do not see the need for Lucius to get rid of Harry. I see 
where you're coming from, but I just don't read Lucius that way. He's 
perfectly well-adjusted in the Voldemort-free world – he shouldn't 
*care* about Harry's mysterious powers. I mean, *why* is killing 
Harry so important to Lucius? It's not like Harry is not letting him 
live. He isn't all that eager to kill Dumbledore or Arthur, and 
surely he's got more reasons to do so?

 > Its a 95% confidence interval.

Argh. I just had my stat exam yesterday. <g>

<snippety snip snip>
> Even if the gushing classmate syndrome didnt 
> take Harry would surely pursue anyone who attacked his dear muggle 
> friend Hermione. 

OK, now that's a stretch. The arguments above make sense, even if 
Lucius's motivation doesn't, but to assume that the monster would 
attack Hermione

 
> I'd like to be nice for a second, though.

What, you mean you weren't nice before? <g>

> Ok, I agree that the bumping into the Weasleys could have been 
> partially, if not fully, planned. It may not have been sheer 
> coincedence, you are quite right. How far ahead he planned is my 
only 
> question. :p

Coincidences like that don't happen in books. <g> 
 
> Oh, and Last, but most certainly not least. 
> We havent seen Dumbledore do any difficult magic? 
<snip his accomplishments> 

You're quite right.

Maria.
Four exams down, one to go. I think I'll go bake a pie to celebrate.