The Dueling Club - an interpretaion

[darrin_burnett]

No: HPFGUIDX 57822

Melody wrote (with quotes from me in the middle)
> 
 >
> > Darrin's view: NO! I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient
> > Dumbledore.
> 
> 
> I think you hate this so much because it means that every step Snape
> and Dumbledore make are so ingenious and so lucky it is beyond 
belief even for fiction.  


This is close. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more 
Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their 
story and less Harry's story.

I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess 
pawn, which I rebel against.
 
> 
> > * Mean and Knowledgable Snape, Mostly Omniscient Dumbledore:
> >
> > Snape was ordered to make Harry reveal his Parselmouth, but
> > Dumbledore is torked that Snape made Harry a pariah in the 
process.
> > The shrewd and calculating look is because Snape makes Harry look
> > like an evil git.
> >
> > Darrin's view: Not as bad, but hopefully Snape got his knuckles
> > rapped for this one.
> 
> Eh.  The ordered part rather bothers me.  I think it is that word. 


Why? Snape is walking free at the pleasure of Dumbledore. Dumbledore 
personally vouched for Snape, overriding concerns of Moody (which we 
have in canon via his skeptical look when D-Dore was testifying for 
Snape) and most probably Crouch Sr. (not canon, but c'mon, that makes 
sense)

Dumbledore does boss Snape around. "That will do, Severus," in 
PoA. "Severus, fetch me the strongest truth serum," in GoF. He 
overrode Snape on Lupin and has essentially let Snape know that 
Sirius' second chance is just as valid as his in GoF.

They ARE NOT equals. Dumbledore is the Head Master. Snape is the 
Potions Master. Maybe Dumbledore allows dissent, but this isn't a 
committee he's running.

Maybe D-Dore didn't "order" Snape in this instance, but if Snape 
isn't doing it on his own, he's doing it at Dumbledore's wishes, no 
matter how much sugar and pretty please D-Dore gives.


> 
> 
> > * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore:
> >
> > Snape was just having a bit of fun with Potter, and was as shocked
> > as anyone else when Harry was a Parselmouth. The shrewd look is
> > because he realized that what Potter would be going through now 
was
> > 100 times worse than getting a minor fright from a snake.
> > Dumbledore, though suspecting Harry might be a Parselmouth, wasn't
> > sure until this moment. Didn't order anything.
> >
> > Darrin's view: The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a
> > need-to-know basis, not as ultra spymaster. I also like my Snape
> > hateful in a lot of ways, not some benevolent bat flapping around
> > with 18 motives for every action.
> 
> Hm.  That explained you loyalties to me quite well.  I can't 
persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I?
 
Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right 
side. 

> I guess, I do not like this viewpoint because I have problems 
seeing a Snape that protects Harry from falling off his broom, from 
being wrongly accused earlier by Filch, and who is worried sick that 
Harry was late for the train back to school to begin with, now has a
> calculated, sinister, and a bit of a sick lust for Harry to have as
> much fear and isolation as possible for a twelve year old.
> 

Wellllll... Snape did protect Harry from falling off the broom, in 
order to be able to hate James in peace, according to D-Dore.

And it's not like without Snape's word, Harry would be in Azkaban for 
petrifying Mrs. Norris. 

As for the "worried sick" thing. Where is that in canon? We don't 
know exactly why Snape was the one looking for Harry and Ron. We just 
know that he was. Maybe D-Dore, figuring Snape would be the teacher 
least missed at the feast, sent him to go look.

You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in front 
of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he can, 
and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later.

> I just do not buy that Snape "I hate you because of your father" 
crap.  I am sorry.  There is more going on there than just I hated 
your father.  He was good at Quidditch.  He got all the girls.  I 
could never wash my hair.  I hate him.  So, I hate you.  Please.  
Snape is not that one dimensional, and really to date, we do not have 
a good motive for him to have that much hatred for Harry that he 
would find such twist glee in Harry's now extended fear beyond a 
silly snake.

Snape has, in PoA, ripped James in front of Harry. Said it to his 
face. D-Dore, a pretty good judge of character, told Harry -- right 
after telling him he wouldn't lie to him -- that he believed Snape 
hated him in PS/SS. Snape slams James AGAIN in the Shrieking Shack, 
babbling about "thanking me on bended knee" when all he did was take 
away Harry's godfather. 

Maybe there is more to why Snape hates James, but I think it's safe 
to say he does, and transfers that to Harry. I just don't buy the 
Acting!Snape in PoA. 

The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion.

> And clueless?  Snape?  Clueless?  Come on Darrin.  Snape and
> Dumbledore obviously talk....well Dumbledore and Hagrid obviously 
talk too, but I mean, Snape and Dumbledore can look at each other at 
the end of GoF, and with no words, they move "a plan" into action.  

A plan they surely have discussed often before. But that doesn't mean 
D-Dore let's Snape in on every little thing. "Clueless" also was just 
referring to Harry perhaps being a Parselmouth. He's obviously 
knowledgable about some things, but why does he need to know 
everything?

Again, this isn't Snape's story. This is Harry's story. And if Snape 
has got one hand on the puppet rig and D-Dore the other hand, what 
fun would that be?

> I see:
> A informed Snape there to protect Harry and watch the events *if*
> something happens.  And *if* he has the opportunity to "help" an 
event to happen, then bully for their side.  I mean: *Lockhart* is in 
charge of the whole silly event.  Dumbledore is not that stupid.  
Moreover, it seems Snape is more than able to protect Harry and the 
school if need be.  If anything, he could curse Lockhart or do that 
cool ropes from his hands he did in Shrieking Shack.  The school body 
would like it, but that might be a deterrent, since Snape likes 
everyone not liking him.
> 

It seems hard for you to accept that Snape could be just as much as 
tool -- and not a co-conspirator -- for Dumbledore as anyone else. 
Dumbledore, if he suspected the Parselmouth, could have just figured 
that it might come out at some point, and if it didn't, it wouldn't 
be the end of the world for Harry to never realize he had the snake-
tongue gift.

To speculate that D-Dore needed Harry to realize the gift is to 
speculate that D-Dore knew Harry would end up opening the Chamber of 
Secrets. I really don't know about that... too much OmniDumbledore to 
me.


>See: I like a mean but acting Snape.  You get the best of both 
worlds.

I like a Snape dealing with his hate, not already surpressed it and 
just acting hateful. I want him to have been really angry in PoA, but 
acting in other places.

I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, 
McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as 
the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at 
least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view.

Darrin