Snape, Dumbledore and Harry with a side of MD (Was: The Dueling Club - an interp

[Grey Wolf]

No: HPFGUIDX 57866

darrin burnett wrote:
> I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient
> Dumbledore. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more 
> Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their 
> story and less Harry's story.

I want to point out, first of all, that your objections are only in the nature of disliking 
the theory; just because you dislike Omniscient!Dumbledore, it doesn't follow that he 
isn't. I don't like Evil!Lupin, but it has a strong case, and it is altogether possible that 
that's what JKR has planned.

Besides, I fail to see the correlation between Omniscient!Dumbledore and 
Dumbledore's!Story. Take, for example, Lord of The Rings. (Almost) inarguably Frodo 
is the main character, just like Harry is. And Gandalf (particularly Gandalf the White) is 
all-knowing. And yet it is still Frodo's story. What is more, I'm going to go out on a 
limb and say that a wise mentor is desirable. I like stories to be realistic, even within a 
fantasy setting. The rules of phisics might have changed, but the people have not. 
And sincerely, a book were an eleven year old boy can overthrow the bad guy on its 
own, with no formulated plan and throwing caution to the winds may make a good 
film (Star Wars ep. IV), but it's hardly a story I'd want to discuss.

Harry is a boy. He needs teaching. Which in turn requires a teacher. And that is 
Dumbledore. Once that is said, I will defend that Dumbledore is *not* omniscient. 
MD, in fact, is based on that principle. There are two teams in the field, Dumbledore's 
(and it is Dumbledore's and not Harry's, for a while at least) and Voldemort's. And it is 
almost canon that Dumbledore's was loosing before the fateful night. So Dumbledore 
wasn't all powerful and all-knowing then. And it even more canon that Dumbledore 
didn't see the Crouch!Moody plan until it was almost too late, nor did he see the 
Portkey!cup twist, or he wouldn't have allowed it. No, Dumbledore isn't omniscient, 
and Snape certainly is not.

> I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess 
> pawn, which I rebel against.

That's an interesting acusation you make there, Darrin. Unfortunately, MD doesn't 
make Harry a chess pawn except in Voldemort's plans. Dumbledore's plans, 
whichever they happen to be, might include Harry, but Harry is never forced to carry 
them out. Canon: Harry realises that Dumbledore *allows* him to face 
(Quirrel)Voldemort in PS. The traps are designed for him and his friends, indeed, but 
Harry is never forced to make the choices nor is he led by the nose.

In fact, there are two ocasions in PS IIRC when Harry is pointedly told to NOT 
interfere. One is made by Snape, that could be argued that, since Harry dislikes 
Snape, it is a way to force him into acting by telling him the oposite. However, I 
believe this was a form of intimidation technique to stop Harry from getting involved. 
And in case that wasn't enough, McGonagall repeats the order later on. Mcgonagall, 
for Harry, represents authority, and authority Harry normally obeys (in class; he 
certainly does his homework and in general seems to accept McGonagalls authority). 
So we have the same order delivered by intimidation and from the established 
authority. Enough for a good boy like Harry to stay away. He does not, of course, due 
to moral issues, which are indeed above authority, and courage, which is above 
intimidation. The rest of what happens is training, for him and for his friends (you can 
read about how the "defenses" of the PS are training in the MD posts; way to OT in 
this post to go through it).

The fact is that Harry is not a pawn. Not in MD, not in the books, except when 
Voldemort has the upper hand. When Dumbledore is involved, Harry is always allowed 
to make his own choices, and there is more than enough canon for that. MD doesn't 
say otherwise, either. What MD says is that Harry is being trained, and when the time 
comes, Dumbledore will indeed tell him what he needs to know. When he is ready, by 
Dumbledore's own words (PS). So Dumbledore *is* keeping things from Harry. If that 
makes Harry a pawn, then like it or not, Darrin, Harry *is* a pawn since it is canon. 
But MD argues otherwise. Harry isn't prepared for that information, and isn't trained 
enough. So he is a student, not a pawn. And like a student, he doesn't know 
everything that goes on.

I keep talking about training, and it will become an issue, so let me elaborate. I am 
not saying that Harry is receiving special training by some dark plan of Dumbledore. 
Harry is in a school, and thus he is being trained. As are all the other students. Harry, 
however, has a knack for getting involved in what goes on in the school, and receives 
extra training ("But we've had plenty of practice at [DADA] anyway", Ron, CoS). Or he 
requests it himself (Anti-dementor lessons, PoA). Dumbledore doesn't force-feed him 
anything, and following his motto, allows Harry to make his own decisions.
 
> * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore:
> The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a need-to-know basis, not as ultra 
> spymaster. I also like my Snape hateful in a lot of ways, not some benevolent bat 
> flapping around with 18 motives for every action.
>
> Melody:
> > Hm.  That explained you loyalties to me quite well.  I can't 
> > persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I?
>  
> Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right 
> side. You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in front 
> of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he can, 
> and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later.

Good canon examples, indeed. And yet... there is that little scene in CoS, in the office, 
when Snape has no public (and by public I mean students). McGonagall informs the 
staff that a student has been taken into the chamber. And Snape displays, for the first 
time, concern for someone who is not himself. He demonstrates, by gripping a chair 
hard, that he is worried. He doesn't know who the student is, so some people have 
theorized he feared it could be one of his Slytherin. But even if that is the case, it 
demonstrates that Snape is something more than the selfish, egocentric bastard you 
(and I) would like him to be. Beyond the shows he puts up for his students (and I 
really think it is a show - "to command the greatest respect one must be either loved 
or hated inconditionally" and Snape goes for both - loved by Slytherin, hated by 
everyone else). He might even enjoy it, but there is more to Snape than a one-
dimensional tunnel vision of hate for James Potter.

> Maybe there is more to why Snape hates James, but I think it's safe 
> to say he does, and transfers that to Harry. I just don't buy the 
> Acting!Snape in PoA. 

Again, I think you're misunderstanding MD here, Darrin. Snape does hate James 
Potter, for whatever reasons. It is not so clear that he hates Harry for those same 
reasons, though. And whether he does or not, that hate is not involved in the SS of 
PoA. The Acting!Snape (and we know he's an actor because he's a spy that turned on 
Voldemort and *is still alive*) is directed at Harry, to force him into taking control, 
and thus it is perfectly understandable that Snape used what he knew best would 
force Harry into action: insulting his father (check the original MD post; I'm not going 
to go through it again, it's all there). 

This, however, doesn't mean that what he said is false; in fact, it is easier to act when 
you use the truth. No, what gives him away is that previous to that point, Snape has 
never lost control, particularly not with a student, and it is even more strange given 
the fact that he is icy calm when facing the person he hates the most (more even than 
James, or at least as much): Sirius. Snape keeps hopping from one state to the other 
like a frog on hot rocks, and that is, for those tht follow MD, a faint smell of 
subterfuge.

> The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion.

That cannot be true. Voldemort is nothing but hate, and he is very unidimensional. In 
fact, the whole idea is wrong: if a character is an elemental - i.e. based around a 
single idea- he is bound to be simple. Snape is complex because there is more to him 
than hate. He can care about students. He is willing to obey Dumbledore. He might be 
loyal, or he might be traiterous. But not just hate.

But it is your opinion, so there really isn't much point in arguing. In my opinion, 
Snape becaomes more real the more faces he has, just like any other character.

> Again, this isn't Snape's story. This is Harry's story. And if Snape 
> has got one hand on the puppet rig and D-Dore the other hand, what 
> fun would that be?

Again, you're putting ideas in MD that simply are not there. Dumbledore certainly 
never pulls Harry's strings except when he really needs his help - like the Time-
Turner incident in PoA. Snape will attempt to pull strings, but he's hardly Harry's 
controler. nor his puppeteer. More like the rude guy that pushes you into the fray... or 
out of the path of the car.

And beyond that, We are discussing different things here. You want a Harry-centric 
book. I want a realistic book. In my view, Harry cannot do everything on his own - he 
needs help. Dumbledore and Snape, so far, have been the ones to provide it. And *I* 
think the books are much more fun because of it. In terms of the Knights of the 
Round Table, Lancelot the invincible knight was boring in his invicibility. Harry the all 
powerful and self-sufficient wizard would be exactly as boring.

> To speculate that D-Dore needed Harry to realize the gift is to 
> speculate that D-Dore knew Harry would end up opening the Chamber of 
> Secrets. I really don't know about that... too much OmniDumbledore to 
> me.

No, only that Harry *might* be the one to find the entrance. Or at least stop the 
monster. And all that needs is Dumbledore knowing about the chamber - which he 
knows-, Riddle's parselmouth -which he knows- and maybe the basilisk -which he 
might know. And of course, add all up together. And Since Hermione could put it all 
together in six months, Dumbledore has had more than enough time in 50 years, I 
think.

> I like a Snape dealing with his hate, not already surpressed it and 
> just acting hateful. I want him to have been really angry in PoA, but 
> acting in other places.

Interesting thought there. So you don't mind Snape acting, as long as he doesn't act 
in the SS. At any rate, it is your opinion, and as such I respect it, but I hope you 
realise that that is no argument against MD (I know, I know, you haven't attacked MD 
at all in your post, but hey! I'm the MDDT storm trooper. I *had* to answer).

> I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, 
> McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as 
> the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at 
> least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view.
> 
> Darrin

You do realise that that is MD's view, do you? We certainly don't say Snape is right-
hand man. That's McGonagall, by canon. No, Snape is the left-hand man, the one that 
has the shadowy plans and gets to do the mucky jobs. And MD has always worked in 
the assumption of information distributed in need-to-know basis.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf, who hasn't made a come back, just found free time