Dumbledore, Snape and Harry with a side of MD (WAS:The Dueling Club - an interpr

[Grey Wolf]

No: HPFGUIDX 57858

darrin burnett wrote:
> I really hate All-Knowing Snape and Omniscient
> Dumbledore. Mainly, I hate omniscient anyone because the more 
> Dumbledore, Snape, whoever, is omnisicent, the more it becomes their 
> story and less Harry's story.

I want to point out, first of all, that your objections are only in the 
nature of disliking the theory; just because you dislike 
Omniscient!Dumbledore, it doesn't follow that he isn't. I don't like 
Evil!Lupin, but it has a strong case, and it is altogether possible 
that that's what JKR has planned.

Besides, I fail to see the correlation between Omniscient!Dumbledore 
and Dumbledore's!Story. Take, for example, Lord of The Rings. (Almost) 
inarguably Frodo is the main character, just like Harry is. And Gandalf 
(particularly Gandalf the White) is all-knowing. And yet it is still 
Frodo's story. What is more, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 
a wise mentor is desirable. I like stories to be realistic, even within 
a fantasy setting. The rules of phisics might have changed, but the 
people have not. And sincerely, a book were an eleven year old boy can 
overthrow the bad guy on its own, with no formulated plan and throwing 
caution to the winds may make a good film (Star Wars ep. IV), but it's 
hardly a story I'd want to discuss.

Harry is a boy. He needs teaching. Which in turn requires a teacher. 
And that is Dumbledore. Once that is said, I will defend that 
Dumbledore is *not* omniscient. MD, in fact, is based on that 
principle. There are two teams in the field, Dumbledore's (and it is 
Dumbledore's and not Harry's, for a while at least) and Voldemort's. 
And it is almost canon that Dumbledore's was loosing before the fateful 
night. So Dumbledore wasn't all powerful and all-knowing then. And it 
even more canon that Dumbledore didn't see the Crouch!Moody plan until 
it was almost too late, nor did he see the Portkey!cup twist, or he 
wouldn't have allowed it. No, Dumbledore isn't omniscient, and Snape 
certainly is not.

> I dislike MAGIC DISHWASHER because I think it makes Harry a chess 
> pawn, which I rebel against.

That's an interesting acusation you make there, Darrin. Unfortunately, 
MD doesn't make Harry a chess pawn except in Voldemort's plans. 
Dumbledore's plans, whichever they happen to be, might include Harry, 
but Harry is never forced to carry them out. Canon: Harry realises that 
Dumbledore *allows* him to face (Quirrel)Voldemort in PS. The traps are 
designed for him and his friends, indeed, but Harry is never forced to 
make the choices nor is he led by the nose.

In fact, there are two occasions in PS IIRC when Harry is pointedly 
told to NOT interfere. One is made by Snape, that could be argued that, 
since Harry dislikes Snape, it is a way to force him into acting by 
telling him the opposite. However, I believe this was a form of 
intimidation technique to stop Harry from getting involved. And in case 
that wasn't enough, McGonagall repeats the order later on. Mcgonagall, 
for Harry, represents authority, and authority Harry normally obeys (in 
class; he certainly does his homework and in general seems to accept 
McGonagalls authority). So we have the same order delivered by 
intimidation and from the established authority. Enough for a good boy 
like Harry to stay away. He does not, of course, due to moral issues, 
which are indeed above authority, and courage, which is above 
intimidation. The rest of what happens is training, for him and for his 
friends (you can read about how the "defenses" of the PS are training 
in the MD posts; way to OT in this post to go through it).

The fact is that Harry is not a pawn. Not in MD, not in the books, 
except when Voldemort has the upper hand. When Dumbledore is involved, 
Harry is always allowed to make his own choices, and there is more than 
enough canon for that. MD doesn't say otherwise, either. What MD says 
is that Harry is being trained, and when the time comes, Dumbledore 
will indeed tell him what he needs to know. When he is ready, by 
Dumbledore's own words (PS). So Dumbledore *is* keeping things from 
Harry. If that makes Harry a pawn, then like it or not, Darrin, Harry *
is* a pawn since it is canon. But MD argues otherwise. Harry isn't 
prepared for that information, and isn't trained enough. So he is a 
student, not a pawn. And like a student, he doesn't know everything 
that goes on.

I keep talking about training, and it will become an issue, so let me 
elaborate. I am not saying that Harry is receiving special training by 
some dark plan of Dumbledore. Harry is in a school, and thus he is 
being trained. As are all the other students. Harry, however, has a 
knack for getting involved in what goes on in the school, and receives 
extra training ("But we've had plenty of practice at [DADA] anyway", 
Ron, CoS). Or he requests it himself (Anti-dementor lessons, PoA). 
Dumbledore doesn't force-feed him anything, and following his motto, 
allows Harry to make his own decisions.
 
> * Mean and Clueless Snape, Smart, But Not THAT Smart Dumbledore:
> The one I like the best. I like my Snape on a need-to-know basis, not 
> as ultra spymaster. I also like my Snape hateful in a lot of ways, 
> not some benevolent bat flapping around with 18 motives for every 
> action.
>
> Melody:
> > Hm.  That explained you loyalties to me quite well.  I can't 
> > persuade you to come over the Safe House for a visit, can I?
>  
> Nope. Snape works for me as a miserable guy who's chosen the right 
> side. You see, I keep seeing the bastard who let Hermione suffer in 
> front of her peers, who tortures Neville apparently just because he 
> can, and who is carrying a schoolboy grudge a generation later.

Good canon examples, indeed. And yet... there is that little scene in 
CoS, in the office, when Snape has no public (and by public I mean 
students). McGonagall informs the staff that a student has been taken 
into the chamber. And Snape displays, for the first time, concern for 
someone who is not himself. He demonstrates, by gripping a chair hard, 
that he is worried. He doesn't know who the student is, so some people 
have theorized he feared it could be one of his Slytherin. But even if 
that is the case, it demonstrates that Snape is something more than the 
selfish, egocentric bastard you (and I) would like him to be. Beyond 
the shows he puts up for his students (and I really think it is a show 
- "to command the greatest respect one must be either loved or hated 
inconditionally" and Snape goes for both - loved by Slytherin, hated by 
everyone else). He might even enjoy it, but there is more to Snape than 
a one-dimensional tunnel vision of hate for James Potter.

> Maybe there is more to why Snape hates James, but I think it's safe 
> to say he does, and transfers that to Harry. I just don't buy the 
> Acting!Snape in PoA. 

Again, I think you're misunderstanding MD here, Darrin. Snape does hate 
James Potter, for whatever reasons. It is not so clear that he hates 
Harry for those same reasons, though. And whether he does or not, that 
hate is not involved in the SS of PoA. The Acting!Snape (and we know 
he's an actor because he's a spy that turned on Voldemort and *is still 
alive*) is directed at Harry, to force him into taking control, and 
thus it is perfectly understandable that Snape used what he knew best 
would force Harry into action: insulting his father (check the original 
MD post; I'm not going to go through it again, it's all there). 

This, however, doesn't mean that what he said is false; in fact, it is 
easier to act when you use the truth. No, what gives him away is that 
previous to that point, Snape has never lost control, particularly not 
with a student, and it is even more strange given the fact that he is 
icy calm when facing the person he hates the most (more even than 
James, or at least as much): Sirius. Snape keeps hopping from one state 
to the other like a frog on hot rocks, and that is, for those tht 
follow MD, a faint smell of subterfuge.

> The less hate you give Snape, the less complex he is, in my opinion.

That cannot be true. Voldemort is nothing but hate, and he is very 
unidimensional. In fact, the whole idea is wrong: if a character is an 
elemental - i.e. based around a single idea- he is bound to be simple. 
Snape is complex because there is more to him than hate. He can care 
about students. He is willing to obey Dumbledore. He might be loyal, or 
he might be traiterous. But not just hate.

But it is your opinion, so there really isn't much point in arguing. In 
my opinion, Snape becaomes more real the more faces he has, just like 
any other character.

> Again, this isn't Snape's story. This is Harry's story. And if Snape 
> has got one hand on the puppet rig and D-Dore the other hand, what 
> fun would that be?

Again, you're putting ideas in MD that simply are not there. Dumbledore 
certainly never pulls Harry's strings except when he really needs his 
help - like the Time-Turner incident in PoA. Snape will attempt to pull 
strings, but he's hardly Harry's controler. nor his puppeteer. More 
like the rude guy that pushes you into the fray... or out of the path 
of the car.

And beyond that, We are discussing different things here. You want a 
Harry-centric book. I want a realistic book. In my view, Harry cannot 
do everything on his own - he needs help. Dumbledore and Snape, so far, 
have been the ones to provide it. And *I* think the books are much more 
fun because of it. In terms of the Knights of the Round Table, Lancelot 
the invincible knight was boring in his invicibility. Harry the all 
powerful and self-sufficient wizard would be exactly as boring.

> To speculate that D-Dore needed Harry to realize the gift is to 
> speculate that D-Dore knew Harry would end up opening the Chamber of 
> Secrets. I really don't know about that... too much OmniDumbledore to 
> me.

No, only that Harry *might* be the one to find the entrance. Or at 
least stop the monster. And all that needs is Dumbledore knowing about 
the chamber - which he knows-, Riddle's parselmouth -which he knows- 
and maybe the basilisk -which he might know. And of course, add all up 
together. And Since Hermione could put it all together in six months, 
Dumbledore has had more than enough time in 50 years, I think.

> I like a Snape dealing with his hate, not already surpressed it and 
> just acting hateful. I want him to have been really angry in PoA, but 
> acting in other places.

Interesting thought there. So you don't mind Snape acting, as long as 
he doesn't act in the SS. At any rate, it is your opinion, and as such 
I respect it, but I hope you realise that that is no argument against 
MD (I know, I know, you haven't attacked MD at all in your post, but 
hey! I'm the MDDT storm trooper. I *had* to answer).

> I want him to know what he needs to know, just like Hagrid, 
> McGonagall, Lupin and Sirius. I don't know how he got nominated as 
> the right-hand guy and I don't think canon supports it -- or at 
> least, doesn't support it any more than it supports any other view.
> 
> Darrin

You do realise that that is MD's view, do you? We certainly don't say 
Snape is right-hand man. That's McGonagall, by canon. No, Snape is the 
left-hand man, the one that has the shadowy plans and gets to do the 
mucky jobs. And MD has always worked in the assumption of information 
distributed in need-to-know basis.

Hope that helps,

Grey Wolf, who hasn't made a come back, just found free time