A Harry Failure

[Melody]

No: HPFGUIDX 58925

DrMM wrote:
> I'd be interested to read this thread (must have joined after it
> finished) as I've always thought Harry needs to fail in a big way in
> order for him to grow.

::waves back at Annemehr::

Yep.  That was me that started that little discussion.  Glad to know
you found it interesting Annemehr.  I personally find failure to be
vital to existence and growth.  Which is why I am so glad Dr. MM
agrees with me.  :)

At least on that point.


DrMM wrote:
> While others may disagree, I've always thought that Harry tends to
> be careless, reckless and just a touch arrogant.

You mean he is being a pre-teenage boy?  How novel.  :)

Just joking with you.  Yes he is a bit arrogant and definitely
careless, but you manage to stop one of the most powerful dark wizard
at the tender age of one just by looking at him (I assume), become the
youngest seeker in a century who never losses a match when it is
fairly played, nor ever be fully punished for your careless actions
and in fact be rewarded for your "rash" behavior and chivalrous acts
of insanity, and also have groupies.  Compare him to modern day
celebrities and he is an out and out dealing with his celebrity with
amazing grace.  *And* without a psychologist or therapy.


>PS/SS: In the first book, Harry & Ron race into the bathroom to fight
> a troll. They both could have run off to find a teacher and explain
> what they saw but they rush in and fight it themselves. They never
> consider the consequences, which could have been deadly.

Well they did not run off to fight the troll.  They ran off to find
Hermione.  They found her and the troll trying to kill her.  So
therefore, they saved her life because they did not run off to find
the teachers but dealt with the situation at hand.  Frankly, they did
not have the luxury of yelling for help.  Hey, that troll made a lot
of noise.  You would think McG, Snape, and Quirrel would have followed
the sound of breaking porcelain and pipes.  So that time, Harry and
Ron were just being a good friend because it was Ron's fault that she
was there in the first place.


>In a somewhat more iffy example, Harry rushes off to try and stop
>Quirrel *by himself*. While he recognizes the danger, he at least
>thinks he at least has a chance to stop him, which has always seemed
>a bit arrogant to me. As we find out when we read the story, if
>Hermione hadn't been there, Harry would have been stopped at the
>second challenge.

Well there are many theories on the site about the obstacles on the
path to the mirror.  Really, they were a bit elemental, don't you
think?  And what was the point of them, when the mirror itself was an
amazing defense.  The main theory I like, and works so well with MD,
is the testing of the character and skill of the kids.  But that gets
into Dumbledore setting up the course to have Harry confront
Quirrelmort at the mirror alone.  It is a long theory, and I do not
have time for it here, but essentially the mirror and stone were bate
for Harry and Quirrelmort to reach that chamber to confront each other
and see if Voldemort can be killed in a host body.  Really Harry was
in little danger, and in fact, Dumbledore was there to jump it if
Harry could not kill Voldemort in Quirrell's body.   But I am
digressing a bit.

The point I am trying to make is that Harry was slightly pushed to go
after that stone and mirror.  He was shown how the mirror worked by
Dumbledore himself, which was very fishy thing to do.  I mean, what
reason did Dumbledore have to do that?  If he wanted Harry to see his
parents, he could have shown him that picture book like he had Hagrid
give him in the end.  I know, it does not *say* Dumbledore influenced
that gift, but I like to think he did.  But that is a guess not fact.

Harry knew what was the right thing to do in the mirror's case.  As
far as he knew he had all the fact tot he situation.  He knew
Dumbledore was gone and that no one else was going down to stop
Quirrel.  All the other teachers told him to leave it alone because it
was well protected.  But from Harry's point of view, the stone was not
protected as well as they thought.  He knew Quirrelmort could get past
Fluffy.  Meaning if they were not aware of that fact, they would sleep
well that night and the stone would be in jeopardy.  So from Harry's
view he had to go.  He had luck with Voldemort before, and he went
with that confidence and that confidence alone.  Plus, a few dinky
spells like Alohomora and Wingardium Leviosa.  Wouldn't it be funny if
he bet Voldemort because of those two spells?  Anyway...


> CoS: What reckless things DIDN'T Harry do in CoS? He doesn't tell
> Dumbledore he's a Parseltounge.

Hmm.  Ok, Harry did not tell Dumbledore about the parseltongue.  Well
actually, Harry should have assumed Dumbledore knew that from the
dueling club.  The whole school knew he was a parseltongue, but what
Dumbledore did not know was that Harry was hearing voices.  And why
was it that Harry was afraid to tell him that?  What was he afraid of?
 Why did he not trust Dumbledore enough to tell him that fact?  Well,
he had Ron and Hermione telling him that hearing voices is a bad
thing.  What is Harry most afraid of?  Being kicked out of the wizard
world and taken away from his friends.  What do they do with crazy
people and wizards?  Ship them off from all decent society.  Far from
Hogwarts and his new beloved life.  Harry does not know Dumbledore
that well yet.  He does not know if telling Dumbledore that he hears
disembodied voices will get him the fast tract to Mungo's.


> He rushes off to the Forbidden
> Forest, knowing full well how dangerous it is and nearly dies.

Well, Hagrid did tell him to do it.  Harry is anything if not
obedient.  And Harry did have detention in the forest where he was
rescued by a centaur the last time.


> And
> the thing that has always annoyed me -- knowing the location of the
> Chamber and after discovering what a completely incompetent person
> Lockheart was (which he already suspected), he and Ron didn't go ask
> another teacher for help. Instead, he and Ron go to the chamber
> themselves -- knowing that they're going to face a very dangerous
> monster.

Well yes that was stupid, but then again like with Hermione.  Harry
and Ron thought Ginny was dead or dying down there.  They were pressed
for time.  Harry has gotten more confident in his abilities and knows
now it is a snake.  He had luck with the last two snakes he had
encountered in controlling them.  And now it was his fellow
Gryffindor, best friend's sister, and his own cute crusher that was
down there.  Harry's mind is focused when it is on a mission, and so
far has *any* teacher really helped him defeat a bad guy?  Not by
*Harry's* knowledge.  That happens without his knowledge.


> PoA: There are a lot of things that happen here. Harry doesn't even
> consider that Hermione might be right about the Firebolt (not to
> mention how badly he treats her when he's angry about it).

This I chalk up to a boy with a love for flying.  He gets this
wonderful gift and it is taken awy on the off chance that it might
be...might be cursed.  Come on, the chances of it broom being from
Black was very slim and Hermione was just lucky in her guess.  She was
*completely* wrong in her guess for motives though.  And boys pout
when you take their new toy away.  Ever seen a grown man with a new
toy like a PDA?  They are so giddy and enthralled.  It is cute but
also means you do not exist and he world revolves around figuring out
all its nuisances and cool tricks.  Hermione walked up and
figuratively snatched that new toy out of his hands and told him he
*might* get it back.  Come now.  Will any guy here on the site say
they too would not have pouted?  And they are grown men.  Harry is
only 13.


>He runs off to Hogsmeade, knowing that a killer is after his life.

And Harry was scolded for that by Lupin.  That was rash.  I will not
disagree.  But Harry was properly told not to do that again.


>When Ron is attacked, he again rushes straight into a dangerous
>situation rather than asking for help.

Again.  Did he have time to?


>If Sirius Black *had* been a
>Death Eater, he would have been dead the minute he entered the door.
>And while we don't know this for sure, if Harry had gone to the
>school for help, someone else could have seen Peter and Sirius would
>have been proven innocent.

Eh.  Not necessarily.  Harry was whisked away to a whole slew of DE's
and they did not kill him.  They toyed with him, but did not kill him
instantly.  And Peter would not have come out if someone else had
found Black and *Scabbers*.  Why would Peter of transfigured?  He was
safe as the rat, and no one would listen to Black's story.  They had
not so far in twelve years.


> GoF: This is the book where I think Harry's *finally* starting to
> think about things more. In fact, I can't think of one thing that
> Harry does that he isn't forced to do because of his unwilling
> participation in the Tournament (Well, he should have told
> Dumbledore about his dreams.).

A fourteen-year-old boy telling Dumbledore about his dreams?  How
could Harry of known they were really happening?  He still does not
know that.  In fact, Dumbledore does not know Harry can see the
present in his dreams.  But when Harry had that fit in Divination
class, he did go and tell Dumbledore.  That was good.  The scar and
all hurting.  He told his "visions" then.


> In all of these books, Harry has survived out of luck and with the
> help of his friends.

Hehehe.  Now, I do not agree with that.  It seems very clear to me
that Harry is supported with a greatly hidden understructure of help
even without MD there.  Dumbledore is investing much into Harry's
education and protecting through Snape, Lupin, and all.  Dumbledore
singled Harry out to show him the mirror's workings in PS/SS.  He sent
the hat and Fawkes in CoS and told Harry in Hagrid's hut that "help"
would come if he asked for it.  PoA is highly debated here, but I
firmly believe Dumbledore had a hand in making sure Harry was safe and
survived.  And in GoF, well the whole crew was making sure Harry got
through the tasks.  And he did, but it was that last moment of Task
three that changed everything.  but once again, there is too much to
go into here about my views on Harry's hidden structure making sure he
stays alive and successful.


> If Harry fails, I think it will cost the life of someone he cares
> about.  And for Harry to learn and grow the most, it should be his
> own carelessness that causes it. I predict that the death most
> people think will happen in OOtP will be caused because Harry does
> something stupid -- and is caught because of it. Or at least in
> book 6.

I still am not sure Harry's failure will cause a death directly.  It
seems so harsh and debilitating, but it would help him grow and focus
more that is for sure?if it does not kill his spirit.  I think the
failure will happen in book five, have him dealing with it in book
six, and then out to conquer all in book seven.  It would be a nice
arch of a story I think but probably very typical.  But then again, if
you look at life, it can be.  After all, it is how he conquers which
makes the story different.



Melody
oh, ::an another wave out to the listee that will not be surprised at
all that I am posting to this thread since she is slowing getting me
back into the habit of reading the site again after my trip::