A Harry Failure

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 59019

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drmm_fuuko" <drmm at f...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" <Malady579 at h...> wrote:
> 
> > DrMM wrote:
> 
> > >PS/SS: ..., Harry & Ron race into the bathroom to fight
> > > a troll. They both could have run off to find a teacher ... but 
> > >they rush in and fight it themselves.  ...

> > Melody (?):
> > 
> > Well they did not run off to fight the troll. They ran off to find
> > Hermione.  They found her and the troll trying to kill her.  So
> > therefore, they saved her life because they did not run off to 
> > find the teachers ...

> DrMM:
>  
> But they could have told a teacher or Percy that they didn't think 
> Hermione heard the announcement. ...edited...
>  

bboy_mn:

And what exactly was Percy suppose to do? He was busy doing his job
which was getting all the first years to safety. It would have been
pretty negligent of him to abandon the students, and go after
Hermione. So Hermione would have simply had to wait until the students
were in the dorm and Percy had time to go after her or to alert
someone. Since it was assume the troll was in the dungeon and Hermione
was not, it wouldn't have been a deathly urgent matter.

And what teachers where they supposed to ask for help? All the
teachers were in the dungeon searching for the troll which in reality
wasn't in the dungeons at all. How long to find a teacher under those
circumstances? How long to convince a teacher that the possible safety
of one student outweighed the real danger of a troll being loose in
the dungeons? If Hermione was in a bathroom, then she was probable
deemed safe given what was known at the time. Given the assumed safety
of the bathroom, Harry and Ron would have been in trouble for going to
the dungeon to tell rather than going to the safety of the common
room. Going for a teacher was not a viable option.

So going for a teacher, or asking Percy would not have brought timely
assistance to Hermione. I can't see her priority being assessed as
anything but low.

Harry and Ron orginally didn't plan to do anything but go to the
bathroom and tell Hermione she had to go to the common room with the
rest of the students. Unfortunately, they encountered the troll on the
way and as luck (you judge whether good or bad) would have it, they
were presented with the opportunity to lock the troll in a room. A
dangerous, but not really all that dangerous move.

The problem started when the realized they had locked the troll in the
bathroom with Hermione, at that point there was no time AT ALL to run
for help. Hermione was under attack and they had to act immediately.
Let's also remember that the troll walked into Hermione's bathroom on
his own. Harry and Ron did not force him in there. So it is reasonable
to think that the troll heard Hermione in the bathroom and went to
investigate. Hermione's danger was IMMEDIATE, and that danger was
there independent of Harry and Ron's presents or actions. They didn't
create the danger to Hermione, they only compounded it by locking the
door. Consider how long it took McGonagall, Snape, and Quirrel to get
to the bathroom. Independant of any action on Harry or Ron's part,
Hermione would have surely been dead before any help arrived.

Also, it's important to judge these event with only the knowledge that
Harry and Ron had. We as the readers are priviledged to knowledge they
dont' have.

> > > DrMM:
> > >
> > >In a somewhat more iffy example, Harry rushes off to try and stop
> > >Quirrel *by himself*. While he recognizes the danger, he at least
> > >thinks he at least has a chance to stop him, which has always 
> > >seemed a bit arrogant to me. ...edited....


bboy_mn:

Harry did NOT rush off by himself and try to stop Quirrel (actually he
thought it was Snape at the time, but for this discussion that doesn't
matter). Harry first tried to find Dumbledore to tell him. Unable to
find Dumbledore, he tried to tell McGonagall. McGonagall was not
willing to listen to what they had to say. As Harry pointed out, if
they claimed Snape was trying to steal the stone before the fact, all
Snape had to do was deny it. Harry really had nothing to back up his
story except his belief that Snape had learn how to get past the last
challenge to the Stone. He did not have sufficient evidence to
convince anyone of anything. Once he discovered Dumbledore was gone,
and McGonagall would not let them stand guard at the entrance, they
(H/R/H) viewed the situation as lost. If they didn't act then based on
the knowledge they had, Snape would get the stone and that would mean
Voldemort would get the stone, and that would be a disaster for the
wizard world.

Harry decide HE was going to try and get to the stone before Snape. He
made his own decision for himself, and neither asked nor expected Ron
and Hermione to come along. He is, in fact, surprised to find that Ron
and Hermione assume that they to are coming along. It is only when
they are deep into the chambers does Harry begin to realize that Snape
is already there at the stone. At that time, he sends Hermione back to
get Ron, and sends the two of them to get help. At that point, Harry
knows he can't possibly defeat Snape. The best he can hope for is to
slow Snape down long enough for help to arrive.

I see no arrogance or inflated sense of self-worth in these actions.
They seem very selfless to me.


> 
> > > He rushes off to the Forbidden Forest, knowing full well how 
> > > dangerous it is and nearly dies.


bboy_mn:

He didn't exactly 'rush off'. He had just seen the Headmaster of the
school, the only thing providing any hope of safety for the students,
suspended. He had just seen his best adult friend sent to prison. He
was the prime suspect in the attacks on the students. The only clue he
had that might lead him to any information that might help was 'follow
the spiders'. They spend days searching for spiders, and only by
chance spotted some while in Herbology. 

So exactly what were they suppose to do? Go to McGonagall and tell her
that Hagrid said they should follow the spiders and that they saw
spiders going into the forest? That would go over big (sarcasm). And
how were they suppose to explain the circumstance in which Hagrid told
them to follow the spiders? I have to believe McGonagall would
completely forget about spiders and focus all her attention on
DETENTION for being out of the castle after dark. I just don't see
talking to McGonagall or any other teachers as being in anyway
productive toward solving the problem.

However, by going into the forest, they found information that lead
them to the student who died and to the location of the entrance to
the Chamber of Secrect. Something that would have never happened if
they had played by the rules.


Going into the Chamber-
The teachers had already given up. They were getting ready to close
the school and were at a complete loss when it came to solving the
real problem.

Remember that when Harry and Ron heard what had happened, they were
hiding in a wardrobe closet. They had a very limited view of what was
happening. They could basically hear the teachers conversation with
Lockhart, but had a limited view of demenor and body english which in
turn limited the ability to interpret what they heard. So while they
knew the teachers didn't put much stock in Lockhart, Lockhart did
indicate that he was going into the Chamber after Ginny while the
other teacher spend their time preparing to close the school and send
the students home. The only person who gave even the slightest
indication that they were going to do anything about Ginny was Lockhart.

After going back to the common room and pondering the circumstances
for a while, they decide the best thing to do is tell Lockhart what
they know. At this point, while I'm sure they believe Lockhart is
incompetent, they do believe that he is going to do something. Once
they confront Lockhart and find out that he is running, their last
hope is lost. Now what? Exactly what would you have them do at this
point? 

I think they made a reasonable decision to go to Myrtle's bathroom,
talk to her, and see if they can confirm their suspicsions that her
bathroom is indeed the entrance to the Chamber. Once Harry opens the
Chamber, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to decide to go in
after Ginny given that none of the teachers has show any interest in
helping Ginny. 

We are in a situation very similar to the troll, the primary concern
of the teachers is the welfare of the entire student body. There is a
limted amount that they are willing to do for one possibly dead
student when they have nearly a 1,000 LIVE students who are depending
on them. 


Black Dog Attacks Ron in POA-
Ron is viciously attacked by a bear sized dog. When the dog dragged
Ron under the tree snaping his leg in the process, it would have
become obvious to anyone that the dog had absolutely no concern for
Ron's safety. The danger was immediate, and action had to be just as
immediate. 

Consider how long it took and how hard it was to get help to come down
to Crouch Sr in GoF. Given the time it would take to run to the castle
or to Hagrid's for help, and given how much explaining it would take
to get people to understand what had happened, knowing what they knew,
Ron would surely have been dead. 

Once again we have to analyse this situation by ONLY giving
consideration to what Harry and Hermione knew. We as readers are
priviledged to a lot of inside information that Harry and Hermione
don't have. We also have the luxury of hindsight, and plenty of time
to analyse the situation. No matter how long we take to analyse it,
the danger to Ron doesn't change. But from Hermione and Harry's
limited perspective, every second brings Ron one second closer to
imminent death.

All they know is that their best friend have been capture by a vicious
bear-sized black dog who has already thrown Ron around like a rag doll
and broken his leg. In the heat of the moment, any evaluation of the
situation would have to conclude that delay was not an option. As far
as Harry going after the dog and Hermione going for help, that is a
possibility, but I don't see it as a likely option. Harry is not
really equiped at that point to deal with a vicious animal like this.
You can't delay vicious animals with a lot of small talk. So what is
he going to do? What spell would be effective against an animal like
this? ...a tickle charm?

Sorry, but I pretty much see Harry and Hermione as evaluating the
situation accurately and doing was any reasonable brave person would
have done. 

Admittedly the safest thing for Harry and Hermione would have been to
go for help, but I honestly believe that that course of action would
have been death for Ron. Remember, the evaluation of what to do is
based on available knowledge, not on what we the readers know is going
to happen in the next chapter or two. Harry and Hermione can only make
their judgement based on what limited knowledge they have at the time,
and any reasonable interpretation of that knowledge would say save
your friend before it's too late.


Just a thought.

bboy_mn



> 
> DrMM (who was reading Fantastic Posts earlier and was astonished to 
> find how many of her messages from 2 years ago were included)