Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4)

[kiricat2001]

No: HPFGUIDX 83978

Kneasy said:
 
> Oh, dear.
> Can we inject a bit of realism in here please?
> Just  what sort of surrogate parent would Sirius be?
> 
> He's spent 12 years in Azkaban and is a wanted criminal  on the run.
> He has no experience of dealing or coping with  children.
> He has no idea of their needs, emotional  or physical.
> He is rash, disruptive, argumentative, compulsive, naive and has 
totally 
> unrealistic expectations of Harry.
> He is not to be trusted.

Now me:

I know that Sirius is by far not your favorite character, Kneasy, but 
I think some of your reasons listed above don't hold water. No idea 
of emotional or physical needs of children?  As someone who came from 
a family where emotional support was lacking, I'd say that Sirius 
would have a very good idea of the support needed by a kid.  Physical 
needs?  What are you saying here - that it wouldn't occur to Sirius 
that Harry would need food, shelter, clothing?  Or that he wouldn't 
be able to handle a discussion about hormones?  I don't understand 
where that's coming from.

No experience coping or dealing with children.  True, but lots of 
first-time parents have none of that, either. And they have to tend 
to all the needs of a newborn, not with a teen, who, at the very 
least can articulate what needs are not being met.  Unless you're 
advocating that only those people who've tended to younger siblings, 
or who have years of experience baby-sitting or who have an extended 
family to help with child care should have children, then this falls 
by the wayside.  

I'm not going to respond to your other points, as I know they are 
firmly held opinions of Sirius' character, and we will never come to 
agreement on that.

Kneasy:
> Just because Harry has fantasies of leaving the Dursleys does not 
make
> Sirius an ideal replacement. Harry is not to be trusted either, 
especially
> when he knows almost nothing of the true situation. What makes you 
think
> that any of the powers that be would allow Harry and Sirius to make 
their 
> own arrangements (after the Shrieking Shack)? Might as well paint a
> target on Harry's back. Do you really think that the WW courts would
> kiss and make up with Sirius, even if Pettigrew did tell the truth?
 He'd be
> staight back into Azkaban for being an unregistered Animagus. If he
> got off that charge, where would he and Harry go? Grimmauld Place 
without 
> DD's protection? What a thought!

Me:
All this is speculation that can never be supported one way or the 
other because if Pettigrew had been brought in to tell his story, the 
entire course of the Potter series would have gone in a different 
direction.  But, as you've gone in that direction, yes, I think, had 
Pettigrew been apprehended and the true story came out, Sirius would 
have been cleared. And, in an effort to make up for their appalling 
lack of justice, the MoM would have waived any punishment for the 
illegal Animagus as long as Sirius registered. And, at some point, DD 
would have stepped in and broken the news to Harry and Sirius about 
the need for Harry to stay with the Dursleys.  But,just as Harry has 
been allowed to visit the Burrow, he could always have visited 
Sirius.  And I doubt he'd take up residence at Grimmauld Place, but 
would have found somewhere else to live.  So, yes, I think it could 
have worked without Harry having to give up his protections.


Kneasy:
> Molly also  realises the unthinking admiration Harry has for 
Sirius, he
> sees him as a  glamorous figure to be admired and emulated - a very
> dangerous mindset. 

Me:
Then Molly is once again misreading the situation.  In the very first 
chapter Harry smothers his impulse to go take on Dudley and his 
friends, mentally acknowledging that his non-action would make Sirius 
happy - that he, Harry, hadn't done anything rash.  Harry's actions 
in the books may at times be interpreted as rash or impulsive, but no 
where that I can recall does he leap blindly into action because he 
wants to be a Junior Sirius or because he wants action for action's 
sake or because he's looking for thrills.  

I don't get the impression at all that Harry finds Sirius a glamorous 
figure or has unthinking admiration.  He saw him first and foremost 
as a link to his parents, particularly his father.  In OoP, Harry 
feels a great deal of empathy for Sirius because he sees them both in 
similar situations - locked up, cut off, and having most of their 
society believing awful things about them that are simply not true.  
But nowhere in this did I see the sort of blind hero worship that you 
see.

Kneasy:
Molly is not smart, she can't challenge Sirius on an
> intellectual or logical level; all she can do is snipe  and hope 
that Harry
> will  see reason. It doesn't work, which raises her levels of 
concern to 
> where she just sounds carping. But anyone with an ounce of  common
> sense must realise that Sirius is bad for Harry.

Me:
And, what a pretty picture you're painting of Molly - dumb and 
shrewish ;-)
 
Kneasy:
> He is Harry's Achilles heel; Harry can be got at through Sirius. 
Voldy soon
> realised this when he started probing Harry's mind. I've posted on 
this
> before and I believe that DD and a few other thinking wizards were 
vastly
> relieved when Sirius took his final curtain. Maybe they helped him 
on his way,
> a poignant memory is preferable to an active danger.

Me:
And, I do hope you're wrong about that.  It's so cold-blooded to me, 
even though I understand that sometimes the greater good takes 
precedence over the wants/needs of individuals.  Call me an old 
softy, but I do hope that the final denouement of the series is not 
going to reveal that many of those we thought were good were Evil! 
and that DD is completely Machiavellian. Sometimes bad things happen 
because they happen, not because every move everyone makes is a step 
in some grand, pre-choreographed scheme...

Laura wrote:
> > The real sadness of the situation is that Harry needed both 
Sirius 
> > and Molly-a father figure and a mother figure.  Molly might have 
> > made an effort to combine forces with Sirius instead of competing 
> > with him.  Given Molly's age, parenting experience and general 
life 
> > experience, I put most of the blame for their antagonism with 
her.  

Kneasy:
> Can't agree. Sirius is not interested in joining forces, only in 
being
> sole mentor. Molly's parenting experience tells her that Sirius 
would
> be a disaster waiting to happen. Sirius would soon be manipulating
> Harry emotionally into being his (Sirius') surrogate. Harry would 
be dead
> in three weeks.

Me:
Are you saying this with the idea that, if Sirius was sole mentor, he 
and Harry would be off living someplace by themselves?  Because, if 
we're talking about this within the contraints of OoP, I don't see 
how Harry's interactions with Sirius would not have been appreciably 
different than what they were.  Sirius would still be cooped up in 
the house, the methods of communication would still be as dodgy as 
they were.

I think Laura is right in that the best situation as set up in OoP 
would have been for Molly and Sirius to work together. But, each of 
them brought baggage with them - Molly's stress and upset over the 
Percy situation, her worries about her kids, especially since now 
Bill and Charlie are working for the Order, her having to accept 
people she doesn't approve of, like Mundungus and Sirius.  And Sirius 
is back living in the house from hell, constrained from much 
interaction with Harry, surrounded by people who have had actual 
lives over the past 14 years, some of whom may only be accepting his 
presence because Dumbledore has said they should trust him. Neither 
Sirius or Molly is in a particularly comfortable position.  

Marianne