Dumbledore, Leader of Men (and Women) (was: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4)

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No: HPFGUIDX 83984

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" <Zarleycat at a...> wrote:
>> 
> I know that Sirius is by far not your favorite character, Kneasy,
>

Good heavens! Whatever gives you that idea?

> but 
> I think some of your reasons listed above don't hold water. No idea 
> of emotional or physical needs of children?  As someone who came from 
> a family where emotional support was lacking, I'd say that Sirius 
> would have a very good idea of the support needed by a kid.  Physical 
> needs?  What are you saying here - that it wouldn't occur to Sirius 
> that Harry would need food, shelter, clothing?  Or that he wouldn't 
> be able to handle a discussion about hormones?  I don't understand 
> where that's coming from.
> 

Sirius went into Azkaban in his  early twenties and ever since he's been
a physical and emotional  disaster  area. His only  experience of
childhood is probably  the one he's still struggling through. When has
he *ever* acted like a responsible adult? And I include in that the times
before he went into  Azkaban. 

> No experience coping or dealing with children.  True, but lots of 
> first-time parents have none of that, either. And they have to tend 
> to all the needs of a newborn, not with a teen, who, at the very 
> least can articulate what needs are not being met.  Unless you're 
> advocating that only those people who've tended to younger siblings, 
> or who have years of experience baby-sitting or who have an extended 
> family to help with child care should have children, then this falls 
> by the wayside.  
>

I'm afraid you're falling into a false appreciation of the situation, don't
worry, you're not alone - most of  the Siriophiles are in the same situation.

Is Harry a normal teenager?

No, he is not.

He is, so we have been told, the best hope of the WW for the destruction
of  Voldemort. That takes precedence above any nice, warm, cuddly
feelings about "Oh, wouldn't it be nice..." Harry needs a Guardian in
both senses of the word and in both senses of the word that guardian 
must be 100% reliable. Sirius has never been reliable. 
 
 
> But, as you've gone in that direction, yes, I think, had 
> Pettigrew been apprehended and the true story came out, Sirius would 
> have been cleared. And, in an effort to make up for their appalling 
> lack of justice, the MoM would have waived any punishment for the 
> illegal Animagus as long as Sirius registered. And, at some point, DD 
> would have stepped in and broken the news to Harry and Sirius about 
> the need for Harry to stay with the Dursleys.  But,just as Harry has 
> been allowed to visit the Burrow, he could always have visited 
> Sirius.  And I doubt he'd take up residence at Grimmauld Place, but 
> would have found somewhere else to live.  So, yes, I think it could 
> have worked without Harry having to give up his protections.
> 
> 

The Ministry would make sure that Sirius went back to Azkaban if they
could possibly arrange it. Sirius *is* an unregistered Animagus. He  
would be charged and he is guilty. They would not let him off because
they made a mistake the first time, but they might let  him off if friends
of Voldy suggested that it would bring Harry out into the open. Harry
has carefully constructed protections at Privet Drive, blood ties that
protect where  other magic won't. What can Sirius offer?
 
 

> Then Molly is once again misreading the situation.  In the very first 
> chapter Harry smothers his impulse to go take on Dudley and his 
> friends, mentally acknowledging that his non-action would make Sirius 
> happy - that he, Harry, hadn't done anything rash. 


And then, of course, starts provoking Dudley when they're on their own
before the Dementor attack.

> Harry's actions 
> in the books may at times be interpreted as rash or impulsive, but no 
> where that I can recall does he leap blindly into action because he 
> wants to be a Junior Sirius or because he wants action for action's 
> sake or because he's looking for thrills.
> 
> I don't get the impression at all that Harry finds Sirius a glamorous 
> figure or has unthinking admiration.  He saw him first and foremost 
> as a link to his parents, particularly his father.  In OoP, Harry 
> feels a great deal of empathy for Sirius because he sees them both in 
> similar situations - locked up, cut off, and having most of their 
> society believing awful things about them that are simply not true.  
> But nowhere in this did I see the sort of blind hero worship that you 
> see.
> 

I contend that the male teenage viewpoint would be different.
Teenage males don't do empathy. Admiration, hero-worship and
emulation, yes. A link with his father? What does Harry know about
his father? Can he even remember his father? Is he anything more than
a concept that seems to engage other people's sympathies? Sirius can
maybe tell him tales of the merry  gang at Hogwarts, what fun they had.
But it  wouldn't last; Sirius' actions, or inaction at Godric's Hollow would
be there. And in the mood that Harry is in, the first time they have a 
disagreement Harry will blame Sirius for the deaths of his parents, 
because he didn't do his duty. Reasonable? Maybe not, but in OoP 
Harry is not reasonable, he's looking for people to blame.

 
> Me:
> And, what a pretty picture you're painting of Molly - dumb and 
> shrewish ;-)
 
No. Molly has my sympathy; she has a large family to worry about.
A family that is keen on getting involved in the war and she fears,
she knows, that some will die and she can do nothing about it.
On top of that there is Harry. Permanently in danger, with no caring
family, no one 'sensible' to  talk to him, to keep him out of trouble.
Molly would see Sirius and Harry as a pair to match Fudge and Percy.
She  may not be  as bright as Hermione but she recognises the risks
involved.

 
> Me:
> And, I do hope you're wrong about that.  It's so cold-blooded to me, 
> even though I understand that sometimes the greater good takes 
> precedence over the wants/needs of individuals.  Call me an old 
> softy, but I do hope that the final denouement of the series is not 
> going to reveal that many of those we thought were good were Evil! 
> and that DD is completely Machiavellian. Sometimes bad things happen 
> because they happen, not because every move everyone makes is a step 
> in some grand, pre-choreographed scheme...
 
Yes, I understand your viewpoint, it's just that I see a difference between
evil and pragmatism, and DD is pragmatic. He must  be. He has to win,
any way he can, and if that means casualties, well... he's seen friends
and allies die before. He didn't  like it, but he knows it's a war, not a
game.

> And Sirius 
> is back living in the house from hell, constrained from much 
> interaction with Harry, surrounded by people who have had actual 
> lives over the past 14 years, some of whom may only be accepting his 
> presence because Dumbledore has said they should trust him. Neither 
> Sirius or Molly is in a particularly comfortable position.  

This is a key point.
How well does Sirius  know Harry? And vice versa? Since he escaped the 
slammer, Sirius has been in Harry's company for about 3  hours, none of
those under what could be called normal circumstances. They  are total
strangers to each other. They may be sympathetic, but that is no basis
for full-out surrogate parenting mode.
The Boggart tells us  everything we need to know about how Molly
feels - mostly helpless. She wants everybody to  be safe, for the war
to disappear, for DD to say that they can all go home, but she knows it
won't happen, not before some very nasty things happen. Meanwhile
Sirius sits in the kitchen bitching about not  being in the fight. 
Not exactly Happy Families.

 
Kneasy