Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic)

[Talisman]

No: HPFGUIDX 82031

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" <annemehr at y...> 
wrote:> see #81932

Talisman, pulling some silvery strands from her head (Hair or 
thoughts? Only her hairdresser knows for sure) and putting them into 
the rune-carved pensive, responds:

Sorry for the length.  I decided that what was left of the 
original "discusion" had to stay in place or it would be too 
difficult to follow and would be more likely to lead to redundant 
questioning, therefore snipping is minimal. Still, the entire first 
agrument isn't here and can be found at #81908. 

Previously Talisman wrote: 
 Dumbledore tells us that it was he (not Lily) who made 
the "decision" that Harry would be protected by a  certain "ancient 
magic" likely to slide under LV's radar.(OoP 835)

 We see that it is not simply Lily's death that gives Harry what  
little protection he gets (partial days six weeks a year?) from  
this "ancient magic." 

 It is the "charm" Dumbledore placed on Harry (OoP 836) A lovely 
little charm that just happens to require  ingredients like Lily's 
blood and Petunia's home. Stir it around in  a pot and Dumbledore 
says you've got "the strongest shield charm *I* [hear Dumbledore 
claiming credit?] could give you." (OoP 836 my  emphasis)

Annemehr, intrigued, responded:
All right, first of all we have two things going here. The first is 
whatever saved Harry's life when Voldemort attacked him, and the 
second (which follows directly from it to be sure) is Harry's 
protection at number 4, Privet Drive.

Now Talisman writes: 
Well, we have one death with multiple effects: 1)skin protection-- 
negated in GoF; 2) "gleaming" ingredient for LV's new bod--achieved 
in GoF; and 3) part of the runic charm that saved Harry, 4) part of 
the Privet Drive protection (which I believe is the same runic 
charm). 

Annemehr : The text would seem to imply that, finding (or *putting*) 
himself in charge of a boy who was saved by his mother's death, 
Dumbledore used a certain charm to take advantage of this situation 
and the fact that the boy's mother has a sister.

Now Talisman writes: 
And that's fine, except if you think JKR pointed us to the rune 
(which just happens to mean defense, and just happens to look a lot 
like a lightning-bolt) for a reason, and in the same book where DD 
reveals that he placed a shield-charm on Harry that required Lily's 
blood and Petunia's house.  The Runic wound occurred as the curse 
was deflected. That means it was in place before the attack and that 
implies premeditation, etc. 


Annemehr : 
You, however, state straight out that Dumbledore is responsible for 
both the protection by Lily and the protection by Petunia. 

Now Talisman writes: 
But of course it is DD who tells us that the reason Petunia's house 
is necessary to the charm is Petunia's blood link to the sacrificed 
Lily whose blood empowers the charm, so that's pretty 
straightforward.  I don't understand where you think I'm adding 
anything.

Annemehr: 
To go a bit further, I would say that your use of quotation marks 
above implies that I should type "protection" in quotes also. 

Now Talisman writes: 
Well, I'm not sure what you see in my use of quotation marks, which 
are only meant to accent the operative, canonical, terms 
like "charm" and  "ancient magic," but if you inferred that I think 
the blood-pact explanation for Harry's years of abuse is hooey, you 
are quite right.  I do owe you that TBAY, and I will get it out.  I 
know, I've said it before, but I really want to and I will find the 
time, somehow. Soon. 

Then Talisman continued:
> By the way, we know Lily's "sacrifice" didn't leave a physical 
mark on Harry. (SS 299) I suggest to you that the scar on Harry's 
head is indeed the defensive rune "eihwaz," (OoP 715) and a 
consequence of  Dumbledore's charm. This, of course, implies pre-
meditation and orchestration. (Wouldn't do to have LV come knocking 
when Lily was  upstairs taking a nap and Harry was bouncing on his 
Daddy's knee in  the living room.) Ah, shades of Sirius Black.

Annemehr:
I'm reading from you an assertion that all this was very closely 
choreographed by Dumbledore. I have liked the theory that Harry's 
scar is indeed the rune ever since I first saw it posted. However, 
when I'm playing a strategic game (all right, Pokemon card game, 
don't ask), I like to lay a lot of defenses as well as planning an 
offensive strategy. How can you defend going further than saying 
that Dumbledore was using the rune as one of a range of defensive 
moves for Harry? 

Now Talisman writes: 
Well, your Pokemon tactics notwithstanding, I don't think we see a 
lot of superfluous movement from DD.  If you can point me to a 
pattern of contingency plans, I'd love to consider them.  The only 
one I can think of right now is his vetting of the Neville/Harry 
question.  But of course the prophecy question is another topic 
altogether and we'd better stay on course until we are through with 
this one.

Annemehr: 
And why couldn't it be James who died for Harry if that was how the 
situation played out? Then you'd only need Harry in the presence of 
either one of his parents at all times, a practice Lily and James 
are likely to adhere to in any case, with their son so threatened. 
<snip> There is no problem in suggesting one of them [the parents] 
would need to die defending Harry, either, if it came down to that. 
Why can't this be all DD did,
rather than arranging the deaths of James and Lily in a certain way? 

 
Now Talisman writes: 
My dear Annemehr.  You know James was going to be killed anyway.  
His death was certain and therefore not the "sacrifice" that Lily's 
was.  See e.g. SS 249, 298 and GoF 635. Both DD and LV repeat that 
it is Lily's willing and unnecessary death that is key to the "old 
magic," in all its applications.

Moreover, DD's shield charm requires the home of a family member who 
shares the blood of the sacrificed one.  James has no other living 
blood relatives, so even if his death could qualify for a sacrifice 
(which I deny, no offense to James) there would be no safe home 
created.

1)DD invoked the runic charm before the attack--that's why its 
effect was seen as a consequence to the attack.  If the charm is to 
work:
2) Lily has to die, there is no other candidate; 
3) Lily can't die fighting LV in any other context than willingly 
throwing herself in front of Harry; 
4) Harry can't be allowed to be attacked if Lily isn't in front of 
him; 
5) If you've come this far, you can't believe DD's going to leave it 
all to chance.


Annemehr : 
[Aside: If DD *is* choreographing things, he could have brought 
Pettigrew to Voldemort's attention through his spy, Snape, and I've 
no doubt he could have planted the "Pettigrew as unlikely secret-
keeper" seed with Sirius, too -- but that's not any proof.]

Now Talisman writes: 
Pettigrew had been LV's spy for over a year. (PoA 374)  The Godric's 
Hollow attack occurred "barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had 
been performed [on Sirius]," (PoA 205), therefore likely only days 
after the "switch" to Pettigrew.  Pettigrew ran straight to his 
master.

Everyone knew there was a spy in the Order (e.g. PoA 375) I do not 
believe Pettigrew could have fooled DD for a year.  Whether DD 
planted the switch-seed (outright or through another), or whether he 
relied on Spy!Wormtail's desire to  serve the Dark Lord plus the I'm-
so-clever / reckless attitude Sirius exhibited in his youth and the 
Mauraders's comradery, isn't yet clear. I'm sure if he didn't 
achieve it one way he would achieve it another.  

Annemehr : 
Now, if this "protection at Privet Drive" business was so wonderful, 
you could argue that DD hoped to be able to deploy it, but as far as 
we can tell from OoP, Harry needs to be in the house to take 
advantage of it. You yourself, in your second paragraph above, imply 
this "protection" is not all it's claimed to be. 

Now Talisman writes:
 I know, I need to get that D.O.L.L.A.R. Tbay post out. But "how 
wonderful" (or not) the protection is, is a secondary question.

Annemehr:
 On the other hand, this certainly doesn't seem to be Voldemort's 
understanding. He certainly seems to know about the protection (but 
how?) and believe in it, but he seems to think it applies to the 
entire neighborhood; or else he's just scared of DD's guards and is 
embarrassed to admit it. Why wouldn't he try an alleyway attack as 
Delores Umbridge did? Did Dumbledore manage to feed him some (mis)
information somehow?

Now Talisman writes: 
Supposedly LV's been too weak until his re-bodification in GoF.(Gof 
657) After the fiasco in the graveyard, he wants the Prophecy 
(worthless as it is) in hopes of figuring out why he keeps losing to 
this kid.  He also doesn't want to show his hand openly, ergo the 
whole "get Harry to get the orb" scenario for OoP. 


Then Talisman wrote: 
> Moreover, that's not the only "ancient magic" that uses a 
parental  soup base. Recall that "old piece of Dark Magic" (GoF 656) 
that  required some "Bone of the father....Flesh of the Servant... 
and  Blood of the Enemy?" (GoF 641-42) Odd fabric of creation, that.

Annemehr : 
I'm not sure this applies to anything else, but the spell is very 
fortunately constructed for Voldemort. Three people are required --
Father, Servant, and Enemy. 

Now Talisman writes: 
Nonetheless, JKR is careful to differentiate between spells of 
LV's "own invention" (GoF 656) and old magic that is knowable and 
that's use is therefore foreseeable.

Annemehr:
Pick a servant, any servant: no problem.

Now Talisman writes: 
Can't agree with that. Vapormort was rather short on servants as he 
languished in Albania. Especially ones DD would send him because 
they have a blood debt to Harry Potter. Then there's Wormtail's 
lovely proclivity for amputation.  

Annemehr:
Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient.

 Now Talisman writes: 
Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too.  (GoF 8-9; 656)  But LV (and 
DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it took 
his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a plan 
which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated.

Annemehr:
But then he needs one very particular person: his father. Imagine if 
a bit of soft tissue had been required ("EAR of the Father?" 
Voldemort screeched. "How am I supposed to get EAR of the Father 
NOW?") Shades of William "Bootstraps" Turner, there.

Now Talisman writes: 
Riddle killed his father the summer after he graduated from Hogwarts 
(in CoS  MemoryMort was 16+ 50, and had already been in school for 5 
years, he would have been 17 + 50 in PoA, and killed his family the 
following summer-- Fifty years prior to the start of GoF-- on the 
evening before the "fine summer`s morning" when the bodies were 
discovered, GoF 1-2)  A sort of graduation gift, you might say. 

 He had been planning his LV role for some years by that time, and 
may already have known he'd never need more than Daddy's bones. 
Otherwise he would have canned something.

If not, DD would have made another way to effect the plan.

Then Talisman wrote: 
<snip>  (He had already insured that LV got his limb-chopping 
servant back,  and soon fixed it so he got Harry's (gleam) blood, as 
well.)

Annemehr:
See, I can see the possibility here. I can certainly see how DD can 
be aware of these possibilities ahead of time and make plans 
accordingly, but I don't yet see that DD *alone* chose and brought 
about this one *particular* course of events. Wouldn't sending Harry
to the graveyard be too much of a risk? How did he not nearly lose 
him right there?

Now Talisman writes: 
I think there was as much protection at the graveyard as DD has had 
in place any of the times he has pitted Harry against LV.

1) I don't think LV is referring to Snape as the one "has left me 
forever," I do think it highly likely that Snape is there, under a 
hood;

2) No one, not even DD, has said that _Priori Incantatum_ was 
responsible for :

a) H and LV rising into the air and gliding over to a place free of 
graves (GoF 663);
b) Phoenix song that gives H hope and strength;
c) the "thousand" beam dome-web/light-cage that separates H/LV from 
the DE's (663-64);
d) the voice, " almost as though a friend were speaking in his ear" 
that advises H (664);
e) and, it's one thing to see a victim regurgitated, but what was 
with all the advice from the shadow/echos? Lily knew about the 
portkey? James saying "when" to go?

When Sirius asks, and DD explains the "effect," he only speaks of 
the connection/spell regurgitation (GoF 697).  If you think 
everything is explained by the effect, you are assuming more than I 
do.
   
 Annemehr:
Would a ressurection potion merely containing flesh of a servant 
indebted to Harry have been enough for DD's needs, assuming the 
blood came from some other enemy (who would then have been murdered, 
to be sure -- only Harry had any real chance of coming
back)?

Now Talisman writes: huh? Nope. Gleam.


Annemehr :
One last question. In GoF, ch. 36, when Harry is telling everything 
that happened in the graveyard to DD and Sirius, we read : "The 
wands connected?" [Sirius] said, looking from Harry to 
Dumbledore. "Why?" 
Harry looked up at Dumbledore again, on whose face there was an
arrested look.
"*Priori incantatem,*" he muttered. 

Dumbledore appears to have forgotten all about priori incantatem 
until
that moment (reminds you of phoenix tears, doesn't it?). Doesn`t 
that seem very unlikely for one who knew that each wand contained 
one of Fawkes' feathers? But if he had indeed forgotten, wouldn't 
that suggest that Harry's trip to the graveyard was *not* planned by
Dumbledore?

1) I don't think "arrested" means surprised.  Recall that we've just 
seen DD recover from his momentary "gleam."  My dictionaries suggest 
such synonyms as "checked" or "restrained movement."  Ditto the 
Rogets (well, Rogets points out that arrested can mean "mentally 
deficient" in some cases, but I don't think you want me to go that 
far to absolve DD, do you?).  I think an arrested face is a 
restrained face, a face where expression has been checked or 
controlled.  It is a poker face. 

DD shoots H a knowing look and when Sirius asks if Priori Incantatum 
means the "reverse spell effect," DD says "Exactly."  He doesn't 
say "Great Merlin's Beard, that must be it!"

<snip>

Annemehr : 
Anyway, I believe DD is up to something. I know we've been told only 
a fraction of the truth. But, I'll need a lot of persuading if I'm 
going to believe he's orchestrated *everything* since he heard that 
danged prophecy! 

Now Talisman writes:  
My dear, Harry (and Neville) were added to the plan when the first 
prophecy came out.  The plan is much older than that.

Annemehr:
In other words, I'm sailing along with you for *now*, but may end up 
kicking and screaming by the end, and still wondering just where the 
truth lies.

Now Talisman writes: 
A little kicking and screaming is quite cathartic. I engage in it 
myself, regularly. 


Talisman, who owes a little something to boyd smith now, and 
promises it will be along shortly.