Could Time-Turner be used to save Black?

[Amanda]

No: HPFGUIDX 82173

Amanda-first:
> Even if the idea occurred to anyone, and they tried it, they would 
> fail. Because, even if the idea itself hasn't happened yet, we have 
> *already experienced* the time to which they would return, and 
Sirius 
> died. The events they want to affect have already happened.
> 
> Take Buckbeak--he was never actually killed. They didn't go back 
and 
> *change* things--they were simply a part of the things that did 
> occur, that already had happened. If an attempt to save Sirius were 
> made, we would already have seen that attempt during the fight 
scene, 
> and if one was made, it clearly didn't work.
> 
> So, I'd have to say no, use of the time-turner wouldn't save him, 
> because he's already died. If the time-turner were used to save 
him, 
> he would have survived; we just wouldn't know why yet (much like 
> Buckbeak).
 
Ultimatesen:

> Sorry Amanda but I have to disagree. We all know JKR doesn't just 
put 
> things in her plot lines for ambiance. Time turners seemed to be a 
> big part of that chapter (where theyre in that room with the thing 
w/ 
> the egg & bird). This whole theory has crossed my mind. It took the 
> 3rd time reading OOTP (this particular chapter at 5am) before it 
> clicked. If I remember correctly, in GOF, Dumbledore said you could 
> save 2 lives that night. I believe in that area (sorry I don't have 
> my book on me for specific hard canon) there was mention of Sirius 
> getting his kiss at that moment (not by DD but by someone). Youre 
as 
> good as gone w/ the kiss. I don't see why the time turner couldn't 
be 
> used to go back to the point where he *should have* used the mirror 
> or something? I haven't thought this whole thing through yet, but I 
> do believe it's entirely possible. Forgive my lack of hard 
evidence, 
> but I have no clue where any of my books are. We're in the middle 
of 
> remodeling. Anyhow, I'd *love* to see Sirius back somehow (time 
> turner or otherwise) because I feel Harry *really* needs him in his 
> life. I know the Weasley's are family to him, but Sirius was a part 
> of his past & a part of his parents.

Amanda-now:

One thing that JKR has not done yet, and which is a major reason 
we "trust" her as readers, is break her own rules. And the rules 
established for time-turners, in how they were handled and how 
things "happened" in PoA, do not permit something to happen and then 
happen again differently.

This is difficult to discuss because of the limitations of verb 
tenses and descriptions for what's going on, but I'll give it a stab.

In PoA--events happened in a linear fashion for Harry, because he had 
to *experience* them in that way. That's how we live, moving in one 
direction through time. The Time-Turner moved him physically back in 
time, but he, himself, who moved backward, continued being himself 
and continued his own forward progression through time. He did 
not "revert" to the identity he had at the time to which he returned.

We, as readers, have shared that linear progression with Harry, and 
so it seems to us, as to him, that we have lived through something 
twice.

This, I believe, is the source of the confusion about how the time-
turners work. Although Harry, and we, seem to see a "revisit" of 
earlier events, what we are seeing are actually the *exact same 
events* from a different perspective.

Nothing was *changed* by Harry and Hermione going back in time. While 
it is, I suppose, theoretically possible to say Buckbeak actually 
died, and the "first" time around the thud *was* his head coming off 
and Hagrid's cry *was* anguish, other events do not bear out 
the "they really changed things" theory.

Harry himself was in grave danger, moments from a dementor's kiss. 
The only thing that saved him was the Patronus that the Future!Harry 
cast. Future!Harry's presence in that moment of time, and the 
Patronus, were integral parts the event, even the "first" time we 
experienced it.

If Future!Harry had not been there--as part of the original (and 
only) unfolding of the event, Harry would have died, and thence been 
unable to return to "change" things. No, Future!Harry was an 
established and necessary part of the ONE event in the timestream. 

Harry was able to be in that event in the timestream twice because of 
the time-turner--and confusingly experienced everything twice, from 
two perspectives. But the events he perceived, either time, are 
identical, and only happened once in the forward progression of time.

So. To Sirius. Harry has experienced that event. Sirius died. If he, 
or anyone, decides to take a time-turner back and saved Sirius, 
Harry's memory of the event would include Sirius surviving. It 
doesn't. So nobody *will* be taking a time-turner and doing it, 
either.

They may even take a time-turner and *try*--but they will fail, 
because the event as it has occurred includes Sirius' death. Their 
presence in the past event may trigger some necessary thing--which 
happened the first time we as readers perceived it, but did not 
notice--but it will not *change* the events Harry, and we, perceived. 
It may augment our understanding of what actually happened, but the 
events themselves have occurred and are set.

This is not to say that JKR does not introduce plot elements with 
future uses in mind. I'm just saying that she follows her own rules, 
and judging by the way the time-turner operated in PoA, its use to 
*change* an event is not possible. We would already have experienced 
the event *as changed,* and we didn't.

Besides, plot-wise, she said he's gone. Sorry. Harry will have to 
make do with the father-figures he has left: Dumbledore, Lupin, Mr. 
Weasley, Snape. (not all father figures are positive, nor should they 
be.)

~Amanda