To Jeff (Was: Lily and James, a happy couple?)

[Yahtzee63 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 82685

 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" <rredordead at a...>
wrote:

>>
> Jeff said:
> Ah, but did he do it on his own, of because Lily made him? If they
> were falling in love at this point, James could've done it out of
> love for her, not for anything else. If you think about it, he went
> against his best friend to save a common enemy. Only a whipped male
> would dare go against his best friend. :) I've seen this in too many
> married freinds, and it's just part of love, I guess.
>
> No me:
> First I would like to say this post is not about HP but a direct
> response to the content of the above comment.
>
> I'm very disturbed by your use of the term "Only a whipped male would
> dare go against his best friend"  I would like to know what exactly
> you mean by that!
>

  Jeff:
  If you took the time to read, you'd see that my comment was me
being cheeky. :) But it does happen where a man thinks with something
other than his brain, and does things he'd never do otherwise in
order to gain the "prize" the other brain wants. This could be what
James was doing. Its normal behavoir and has happened for all of time
as much as we can tell.<<

Though I have but one brain, I will weigh in. Let's stick to the HP side of things, as Jeff's view of human relationships, in particular the mental and moral capacity of the human male, is both profoundly depressing and OT:

This version of events is operating on the assumption that (a) James saved Snape not of his own accord, but because somebody else urged him to, (b) that this other person was Lily, and (c) that James only did this because he wanted to get in Lily's pants. None of this is in the text or even suggested in the text. It's completely made-up, and though it is one plausible version of events, it's far from the only one or even the most likely one.

Sirius says that James changed. Jeff says that Sirius might be lying; I consider that unlikely. The few solid facts that we do have about about James (that he was a trusted member of the Order of the Phoenix, that he risked his life repeatedly to fight Voldemort) suggest that he was a principled person. I also doubt whether the incident in "Snape's Worst Memory" should be construed as evidence that an unchanged James would be the sort of person who wanted Snape to get killed anyway. James certainly gave Snape some hell, but there is a big difference between wanting to embarrass someone and wanting to see them dead, and we have yet to see a single stick of evidence in canon that would suggest James was ever the kind of person who would rather see somebody he liked die.

(For that matter, it's repeatedly suggested that Sirius did not fully comprehend the seriousness of his actions -- he thought Snape would get scared, not killed, and was guilty of misunderstanding the risk, not coldbloodedly plotting homicide.) 

It's equally possible that Lily knew nothing of the Shrieking Shack incident and that James went to save Snape of his own accord. Certainly, Marauder opinion was not all of a piece -- Remus, by all accounts, was appalled when he learned of the abortive prank. James could and probably did choose to make this move himself. 

>>Jeff:
   Agreed, but why would James suddenly want to save his mortal
enemy? And at the risk of his life, for that matter? <<

Where are you getting "mortal enemy" from? I mean, I can think back to the kids I hated most in high school; I hated them a lot, but I never wanted to see them dead, and never in my darkest days would I have suspected that they wanted to see me dead. I would certainly have tried to help any of them were they in mortal danger. And is it likely that cocky, self-assured James, who's been risking his life every full moon for years, would suddenly suffer an attack of fear at this point? I don't think so. 

Voldemort is these guys' mortal enemy. So far, Snape's never been anyone's mortal enemy. Even Sirius, who despises him and swears at him throughout OOTP, lets him visit the house. 

There's also no proof that the relationship with Lily is what changed James. On the contrary, the suggestions in the text have been toward the idea that James matured, grew out of some of his teenage unpleasantness and THEN he became more appealling to Lily. No doubt the person he became was in large part because of his love affair with her, but the essential changes in his personality -- so far as we now know -- appear to be the normal conclusions of growing up.


Yahtzee