OT:Re: To Jeff (Was: Lily and James, a happy couple?)

[jeffl1965]

No: HPFGUIDX 82704

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Yahtzee63 at a... wrote:
> 
> 
>   Jeff:
>   If you took the time to read, you'd see that my comment was me
> being cheeky. :) But it does happen where a man thinks with 
something
> other than his brain, and does things he'd never do otherwise in
> order to gain the "prize" the other brain wants. This could be what
> James was doing. Its normal behavoir and has happened for all of 
time
> as much as we can tell.<<
> 
> Though I have but one brain, I will weigh in. Let's stick to the HP 
side of things, as Jeff's view of human relationships, in particular 
the mental and moral capacity of the human male, is both profoundly 
depressing and OT:
> 

  Jeff:
   Reality is often depressing, unless one is on prescription 
medications, then it might appear to be more inviting, I would guess. 


> This version of events is operating on the assumption that (a) 
James saved Snape not of his own accord, but because somebody else 
urged him to, (b) that this other person was Lily, and (c) that James 
only did this because he wanted to get in Lily's pants. None of this 
is in the text or even suggested in the text. It's completely made-
up, and though it is one plausible version of events, it's far from 
the only one or even the most likely one.
> 
  Jeff:

     Your theory is quite correct. However, on the other side of the 
coin, Jo doesn't tell us how often they bathe or use the loo, yet we 
can assume if they're human, then they do. Jo is also a woman, and 
doesn't know everything in a man's mind. I can generalize and take a 
stab at making such statements because of either personal experience 
or from what I've seen other males do, such as in the theory I 
suggested. Just think back to your proms or any dances. Do males make 
passes after these things are over? Surely most do. Males don't often 
like to dance. Some do, and do it well, but I'm stating what the teen-
aged male does. Older teens go to get drunk as well as laid. 
Underaged males normally can't get the beer, but they try for the 
other.
   Am I wrong about James? Could be, but only Jo really knows his 
real rationale, and the rest of us can only make educated guesses 
based upon our own thoughts and experiences.


> Sirius says that James changed. Jeff says that Sirius might be 
lying; I consider that unlikely. The few solid facts that we do have 
about about James (that he was a trusted member of the Order of the 
Phoenix, that he risked his life repeatedly to fight Voldemort) 
suggest that he was a principled person. I also doubt whether the 
incident in "Snape's Worst Memory" should be construed as evidence 
that an unchanged James would be the sort of person who wanted Snape 
to get killed anyway. James certainly gave Snape some hell, but there 
is a big difference between wanting to embarrass someone and wanting 
to see them dead, and we have yet to see a single stick of evidence 
in canon that would suggest James was ever the kind of person who 
would rather see somebody he liked die.
> 
    jeff:
    But how long was it after the pensive that the other incident 
occured? A few months? I'm still not convinced that after torturing 
Snape daily, as Draco does the trio, that one day after he might've 
performed another prank that suddenly he'd decide that he has to go 
against his best friend for a geek he hates. A person can still be a 
butt-head and perform important tasks well. I'm sure many of you can 
think of bosses who fit that description?
   Would James want snape dead? Maybe not, but let's not forget that 
we don't know what spell Snape intended to use on James, and that he 
started to draw his wand first. I'm guessing that James knew about 
what was planned much earlier, but might've changed his mind, or been 
asked to stop it by someone else. I'm not even sure that James really 
thought any real harm would come to Snape at first. Oh, but James 
didn't like Snape, and the feelings were mutual, and now carry on 
into the next generation.

> (For that matter, it's repeatedly suggested that Sirius did not 
fully comprehend the seriousness of his actions -- he thought Snape 
would get scared, not killed, and was guilty of misunderstanding the 
risk, not coldbloodedly plotting homicide.) 
> 
   Jeff:

    Agreed. It was only SNAPE who suggested that he was meant to be 
killed. Nobody else said so that I can recall. Snape exaggerated to 
make Black look guilty and even insane in front of the others.


> It's equally possible that Lily knew nothing of the Shrieking Shack 
incident and that James went to save Snape of his own accord. 
Certainly, Marauder opinion was not all of a piece -- Remus, by all 
accounts, was appalled when he learned of the abortive prank. James 
could and probably did choose to make this move himself. 
> 

    Jeff:
   That is also quite possible, but we don't really know, we can only 
speculate. I'm still not convinced that James suddenly had a change 
of heart like that, no more than I think when a minor becomes 18, 
that she/he is any different than they were the minute before the 
stroke of midnight. Remus is a hanger on, a bit like Peter, but more 
well liked, imho. I really think it was James and Sirius running the 
show. Remus tried to be the occasional words of wisdom,but I'm sure 
he was ignored a lot.


> >>Jeff:
>    Agreed, but why would James suddenly want to save his mortal
> enemy? And at the risk of his life, for that matter? <<
> 
> Where are you getting "mortal enemy" from? I mean, I can think back 
to the kids I hated most in high school; I hated them a lot, but I 
never wanted to see them dead, and never in my darkest days would I 
have suspected that they wanted to see me dead. I would certainly 
have tried to help any of them were they in mortal danger. And is it 
likely that cocky, self-assured James, who's been risking his life 
every full moon for years, would suddenly suffer an attack of fear at 
this point? I don't think so. 
> 

  Jeff: 
   Judging by Snape's treatment of Harry, I don't think it was *just* 
schooboy pranks. There is some genuine hate there. Snape is always 
cool, except for during the pensive scene. I think he's had plenty of 
time to learn how to hide his anger, and let it simmer. Also, as a 
teacher, he can only go so far with Harry. I'm sure that if he called 
Harry a little sh*t that his job would be in serious jepordy. Snape 
has only hinted at his true feelings, and I don't know if we'll ever 
know the true depth of his anger, but why should we just assume that 
James didn't have the same kind of feelings, but held them in check 
better? Fear? I don't think I mentioned fear. 


> Voldemort is these guys' mortal enemy. So far, Snape's never been 
anyone's mortal enemy. Even Sirius, who despises him and swears at 
him throughout OOTP, lets him visit the house. 
> 

   Jeff:

     True, but before Voldie, there was Snape. You also have to 
understand that being in the order they must have some protocol to 
follow, and not get too heated in front of too many witnesses. And 
don't forget that Snape only comes there to report. He never stays to 
eat or visit. The house is the only really safe place they can openly 
discuss delicate matters, so Snape has to be allowed there, most 
likely at DD insistance, so give/receive updates. 

> There's also no proof that the relationship with Lily is what 
changed James. On the contrary, the suggestions in the text have been 
toward the idea that James matured, grew out of some of his teenage 
unpleasantness and THEN he became more appealling to Lily. No doubt 
the person he became was in large part because of his love affair 
with her, but the essential changes in his personality -- so far as 
we now know -- appear to be the normal conclusions of growing up.
> 
> 
   Jeff
   That's true, but I still don't think that James had an apithany 
that day and suddenly didn't want to play anymore. He would need a 
reason to calm down, as most males do, and it would have to be the 
love of Lily. I'm sure she did ask him at some point not to be a 
butt, and he would've complied. I don't feel its that far fetched, 
since we can look at some hollywood stars who did calm down after 
marraige and many who didn't.


  Jeff