who will betray the Order?

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 82748

Re: Who will betray the order?

> > From: "slgazit"
> > "I personally put my money on Snape as the eventual betrayer (I 
> > don't think he is as of yet), especially if DD snuffs it and 
> >  he'll face the choice of going back to his former master or 
> > helping a boy he detests. 

<Snip>

> > now Kylie:
> > I cannot find the quote right now, but in JKR's appearance at 
> > the Royal Albert Hall in June, <...snip...> she replies in 
> > essence that Severus Snape is definitely not a nice person and 
> > not to be trusted

<Snip>> 

Hickengruendler:
> I really don't want to nitpick, but this is not exactly what JKR 
> said and she normally uses her words very carefully. She said that 
> we shouldn't feel to sorry for him and that he is worth to keep an 
> eye on him. She didn't say that he is not to be trusted (that 
> said, I don't think she would give such an important information, 
> if Snape really isn't trustworthy).

Pip!Squeak:
Yes, Hickengruendler's quoted JKR almost exactly. There are various 
transcripts of this interview (including an official Bloomsbury one) 
and JKR's exact words were:


JK Rowling:
Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It 
is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Pip!Squeak:
Practically the only thing this quote actually rules out is the idea 
that Snape is a nice, sweet guy, pretending to be nasty.

Otherwise, this quote could mean:

a) Snape is not nice, but he's on Dumbledore's side to the death 
(Snape's, not Dumbledore's). Keep an eye on him, because he's 
important to Voldemort's downfall.

b) Snape is not nice, but he's on Dumbledore's side to the death 
(Dumbledore's, not Snape's). Keep an eye on him because he'll switch 
sides again.

c) Snape is not nice, and is betraying Dumbledore. Keep an eye on 
him, because he's important to Dumbledore's downfall.

d) Snape is not nice, and is pretending to be even less nice than he 
actually is, for reasons connected with either a), b) or c). Keep an 
eye on him. 

e) Look, she *told* you to keep an eye on him, don't blame me if he 
goes and does something nobody expects! ;-)

> Hickengruendler:
> My personal opinion is, that, if there is a spy in the Order, it 
> won't be Snape. Mainly because he is still a highly suspicious 
> character, and it would IMO be really disappointing, if he turns 
> out to be evil. 
>  

Pip!Squeak:

Agreed.  

To me it would be desperately disappointing if JKR gave us this 
suspicious, unlikeable, tortured character,  (who appears to have 
arrived at Hogwarts somewhat to his and the author's surprise; Snape 
seems to have wandered in from some Dostoyevskian novel about 
redemption)- and then says at the end of the book 'hah, fooled you; 
he was the villain all along. Leopards don't change their spots, you 
know; once a villain, always a villain.'

For one thing, it's not in keeping with one of the themes of the 
books. People change. James Potter changed from a thoughtless bully 
into someone who suddenly realised Snape could *die* from one of his 
gang's 'jokes'. Harry is changing throughout the books. Neville is 
growing up. Barty Crouch Sr. realises at the end of his life that 
he's been horribly wrong. People change. 

For another, a growing theme of the books is that people are 
complex. Sirius has both faults and virtues. Umbridge is both one of 
the most memorably nasty characters in modern fiction, and a 
supporter of law, order and peace against disruption. The WW itself 
isn't all that nice (to put it mildly). 


However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if one of the major 
plotlines of Book Seven (probably not Six) was Harry's apparent 
betrayal by Snape. Because that is something we're being set up for.

Consider:

In OOP we discover that Voldemort can read minds.

Except he can't.

Snape plants the idea of the 'subtle difference' in our heads, and 
Harry, as usual, promptly ignores it. 

What Voldemort, or any Legilimens can do, is `extract feelings and 
memories from another person's mind'. [OOP, p. 468 Ch. 24] What I 
suspect (this is my opinion) is that they *can't* actually break 
into what the other person *thinks* about those memories and 
feelings.

Sooo, Voldemort breaks into Harry's mind, and what does he see? Lots 
of memories of Snape shouting at Harry, throwing stuff at him, 
treating him unfairly, sneering at him. Voldemort breaks into 
Snape's mind: and sees exactly the same thing. He looks at Snape's 
feelings; and there is hatred associated with Harry Potter.

What he cannot tell is what Snape *thinks* about this. Nor, because 
Snape is a skilled Legilimens, can Voldemort access any memories 
that might contradict the `Snape hates Harry' scenario. Snape is 
very carefully and neatly set up so that he can betray Harry because 
he hates him so much. Not betray Dumbledore; betray Harry.

What both Harry and the reader are unlikely to be able to tell is 
whether this betrayal is *real*. Is this some long laid plot by 
Dumbledore? Or has Snape finally decided that he really can't stand 
the little brat a second longer?


This would be both a fascinating plot, and in keeping with the 
growing complexity of the books. Harry doesn't like Snape. Harry 
would, in a way, love it if Snape were a genuine traitor. It would 
prove he was right all along. [Ron would be ecstatic]

Equally, lots of readers don't like Snape (lots of readers *do*, and 
therein lies JKR's big problem). They'd love it if he were the 
traitor.

So they'd be emotionally involved in Harry's struggle to work out 
the truth. They, like Harry, would be naturally inclined to distrust 
Snape. They, like Harry, would be struggling to work out if a 
leopard can change its spots. Whether some marks do come off. 
Whether a naturally not-very-nice-person can decide that he's 
willing to risk his life to repair some of the wrong he's done.

Whether someone can be complex enough to be on the side of good 
whilst being a naturally nasty person. Whether someone can change.

So, speculating that this may be a major plotline in one of the two 
remaining books: do we see any signs?

Well, there are the interviews. Every time the dreaded `Snape's a 
nice guy really, isn't he?' question comes up, JKR seems to get a 
variation of the `authorial twitch'. [IMO, she reacts as if she 
really doesn't like this question.] 

If a major plotline in a future book depends on the reader *not* 
knowing whether to trust Snape, you can't answer that question. So 
she doesn't. The interview answer is always some variation on `keep 
an eye on him'. And she often emphasises something that we *already* 
know – Snape is not nice. [Folks, this man mentally tortures small 
children. He may have good reasons for doing it; but `nice' he 
ain't. ] 

Secondly, there is the complexity of the characterisation. Even in 
Book One, which is written in the eleven-year-old black-and-white 
viewpoint, we see Snape-as-poet (that first Potions class). He's 
complex, and he feels real. He feels like a character that has had 
his back-story worked out in excruciating detail, until JKR knows 
almost without thinking how he will react in any situation.

But to date, Snape's function in the plot really hasn't required 
that level of detail. He was the stock villain (fooled you!) in Book 
One. He's almost in the background in Book Two. In Book 3 he's 
someone with good reason to dislike Lupin, which leads him (face 
value reading) to ruin the happy ending in the Shrieking Shack. In 
Book 4 he has very little plot value, but we find out a *lot* about 
his past, and in Book 5 he also has relatively little plot value. 
Dumbledore, or Lupin (or anyone JKR decided) could have given the 
Occlumancy lessons. Harry could have stormed out because he's in a 
bad temper [he does in almost every other chapter ;-) ]. 

In both Book 4 and Book 5, Snape is almost present just for the 
purpose of Harry (and the reader) finding out more and more about 
him (and keeping in our minds that `Snape hates Harry'). Even the 
OOP argument with Sirius isn't *necessary* to the plot. Sirius would 
have felt trapped enough without Snape.

So, JKR thinks her readers will need to know a lot about Snape. She 
seems to know a lot about Snape – and this shows in the very first 
book. If Snape's nature and character turns out to be vital to the 
plot in Book Seven, this makes perfect sense. She had to work out 
his character and back-story when she was working out the series 
plot line. When she wrote Book One, she had to give Snape a lot of 
screen time (he was the distraction). And the background knowledge 
showed; that's why he feels so real in a book where the adults are 
otherwise mostly stock characters.
 
So, is Snape the traitor?

I dunno.

I think we'll find out at the end of Book Seven ;-)


Pip!Squeak