Killer!Lupin (was: Re: Pippin, you've done it again!)

[KathyK]

No: HPFGUIDX 82807

Hi everyone!  Even though I should be in bed I need to respond to 
this assertion that Lupin killed Sirius.  Not because I have any 
burning desire to prove it incorrect.  Rather I agree wholeheartedly 
that Lupin did it.  I like to call him Killer!Lupin, myself. <vbg>
Anyway, I am replying to a couple of Samnaya's posts, as well as 
others on the subject, with a lot of snipping.  If you want to know 
what was said, hit the upthread and check out the replies at the 
bottom as well.   

Samnaya:
 
>In the climactic battle at the MoM, the one assumption that 
everyone seems to make including Harry is that Bellatrix killed 
Sirius. Even Harry says so in no uncertain terms..... but on a 
careful reread and reread again and under the assumption that Lupin 
is evil, I am not so sure anymore.....<

KathyK:

It even works if Lupin is not evil.  Initially I thought Lupin did 
it because he was in cahoots with Dumbledore.  I now believe 
differently, but I still think there is evidence that Lupin could 
have killed Sirius without being Evil.  That's why I call him Killer!
Lupin rather than Evil!Lupin.  Because he fits in a couple different 
theories.  

Samnaya:

<snip>  >{{Harry saw the  light hit -- he did NOT NECESSARILY see 
who attacked Sirius, just that  Sirius was hit. Harry ASSUMED it was 
Bellatrix who did the hitting. I had assumed that Sirius and 
Bellatrix were fighting up close and that Bellatrix was on the dais 
with Sirius - that is not necessarily the case. SIRIUS was on the 
dais because he later fell into the veil and didnt jump up or down 
after he was mortally wounded, but Bellatrix could have been 
anywhere. Her later battle with Harry was all done at a distance!}}.<

KathyK:
As I said earlier, I agree that it was Lupin.  However, for 
clarification there is reason to believe that Bellatrix was on the 
dais with Sirius.  "As Harry scrambled up again he looked around and 
saw Malfoy smash into the dais on which Sirius and Bellatrix were 
now dueling."  (OoP, US edition 804)

While no further mention of where Bellatrix is in relation to 
Sirius, it is entirely possible that Bellatrix and Sirius were still 
on the dais together.  I tend to think so.  However, it can't be 
proven.


Samnaya from 82770:

>>Only thing missing is a solid evil motive. Lupin could have
been turned just because of the prejudice that wizards have
borne towards werewolves, but is it enough? He might not
even be loyal to or working for Voldemort and is just acting
as a "lone wolf" (sorry, I couldnt resist that).<<

KathyK:

It's possible he could be acting alone.  In that case, though, why 
kill Sirius if not to further Voldemort's cause by hurting Harry?  
Could it be that Lupin's just grown so bitter and angry over the 
years toward Sirius who helped ruin his life by tricking Snape into 
the passage under the Whomping Willow? (Apologies to Kneasy, I 
believe he's the one who threw something along these lines out there 
a while ago)  Has Lupin been planning for this ever since Sirius 
escaped and has been biding his time for the right moment to 
strike?  

It doesn't seem likely as Lupin had plenty of opportunity through 
the year to do Sirius in.  And where was he during Harry's fourth 
year?  Did he have contact with Sirius then?  If Lupin was alone in 
killing Sirius out of spite or anger, there were easier ways with 
less exposure.  And he could have still blamed it on someone else.  
An auror or a random dutiful citizen who caught sight of Sirius.  
I'm sure it wouldn't have been hard for Lupin to lure the bored, 
stir crazy Sirius out of Grimmauld place.   

No, Lupin is being the dutiful spy for Voldemort.  But when the 
opportunity did arise at the DoM, he took his shot, literally.  Yes, 
he took a huge risk of being exposed, but as Samnaya points out, the 
only members of the order still standing at the end when Sirius died 
were Dumbledore, who was busy with the Death Eaters and had his back 
turned, and Kingsley, whose whereabouts are unknown as far as I can 
figure.    

Samnaya in 82773:

>>>What follows is a possible explanation as to why Lupin did 
not want Harry to go after Bellatrix<<<

KathyK:

Here I interpreted things differently.  I saw Lupin's feeble effort 
to keep Harry with him as Lupin wanting Harry to follow Bellatrix, 
which would lead him to where Voldemort could more easily get to 
Harry and the prophecy (he didn't know it was broken) out of 
Dumbledore's sight.  I don't think Bellatrix would have mentioned 
Lupin killing Sirius to Harry because for one the two of them are on 
the same side and even if she didn't know previously that Lupin was 
one of them, she knew when he killed his own best friend.  Yes I 
still think Lupin considered Sirius a friend and I do know that's 
messed up.  But think about it.  Lupin does display what has been 
interpreted as grief at Sirius' death.  Is he feeling guilty, 
perhaps?  

Additionally, Harry thinks Bellatrix and that works to her advantage 
as she's able to taunt Harry about it.

"What did you come after me for, then?  I thought you were here to 
avenge my dear cousin!"  (OoP, US edition, 810)

Note, too, that Bellatrix doesn't *actually* take credit for killing 
Sirius.  

Samnaya also in 82773:

>>>... and are her "you should know" and "he is here" referring
to the same person? Wouldnt it be interesting if what Bella 
was TRYING to say before she was interrupted was "Master you
should know that I didnt kill the Animagus Black - Remus
Lupin did!" 

Wouldnt Bellatrix want the credit for killing Black if she
had done so, particularly if she screwed up getting LV the 
prophecy? Why "I was fighting the Animagus Black" why not
"I was busy killing the Animagus Black"? She likes 
bragging that she is the Dark Lord's most loyal servant;
what better way to get forgiveness and grovelling points
than by bragging.<<<

KathyK:

Once again, I don't think that telling Voldemort that Lupin killed 
Sirius is foremost on her mind.  More likely she's just coming up 
with excuses for failing so Voldemort won't torture her.  As far as 
the "fighting" versus "killing" thing, "fighting" sounds longer, 
more ongoing than "killing," which could be as brief as a well 
placed AK.  

Besides, what would be the point of her announcing that Lupin killed 
Sirius at this particular moment?  It's completely irrelvant to the 
important things going on such as Dumbledore being in the same 
building and that he's likely to appear at any moment to aid Harry.

To conclude this portion, I think Lupin let Harry go after Bellatrix 
and she didn't tell Harry because it's to her advantage to let him 
think she did it and that Lupin is still one of the good guys.  So 
we simply have different takes on this particular sequence of events.

Phil in 82794 on Lupin's motivation:

>>>>Now me Phil:
In talking about the goblins going over to LV, in OOP, 5:

"I think it depends what they're offered," said Lupin. "And I'm
not talking about gold; if they're offered freedoms we've been
denying them for centuries they're going to be tempted."

Lupin might be tempted by an offer from LV to cure him of being a 
werewolf.<<<<

Or perhaps Voldemort simply had to offer Lupin the chance to be free 
to choose a job, earn a living, and wear clothes without patches and 
holes.  Lupin is not stupid.  He knows his own condition.  He'd need 
proof that Voldemort had the cure, which I don't think he does.  I 
don't think Lupin is under the impression that Voldemort is going to 
make great strides for him in Human-Werewolf relations but perhaps 
Voldemort offered Lupin himself these freedoms and he's decided not 
to worry about other werewolves.  Maybe Voldemort offered studious 
Lupin control of Hogwarts.  

Tanya in post 82774:

>>>>>Another scene came to mind. Remember after Harry is thrown out
of Snapes office after the pensive (sp) issue.

He then goes to talk to Lupin and Sirus. The gist of it is that Sirus
really wants to run and have words to Snape, but Lupin strongly 
insists
he is the one to do it, then we have no canon saying he actually 
did.<<<<<

KathyK:

And it makes Lupin look like the good, caring friend we all think he 
is, doesn't it?  He's concerned for Sirius' safety and possibly for 
Snape as well.  He makes it look like he's got everyone's best 
interest at heart while ensuring the Occlumency lessons wouldn't 
continue.  Snape gets the blame for stopping the lessons.  No one 
questions Lupin about it.   

I just had an "Oooh, Oooh" moment.  The only ones who knew about 
Lupin's plan to talk to Snape were Harry and Sirius.  What if Lupin 
told Sirius he *had* talked to Snape *and* he'd restarted the 
Occlumency lessons?  In the aftermath of the battle, if Sirius had 
lived, it would have come out that Lupin was supposed to talk to 
Snape.  

Sirius believed Lupin had and thought the lessons continued.  He 
would have found out differently after the battle and would have 
brought to light Lupin's lie, thus blowing Lupin's cover.  So Lupin, 
though it pained him to do so, had to make sure Sirius did not 
survive the battle.  And he'd leave Harry, the only other one who 
could expose him, to Voldemort.  And yes, Harry survived but he's 
not in any condition to remember at that time Lupin saying he'd talk 
to Snape.  

Besides, it's much more comforting for Harry to hate Snape in peace 
than it would be to think unpleasant thoughts about his godfather's 
best friend.  Lupin doesn't have much to worry about from Harry for 
the time being.  Harry will just assume Lupin did talk to him and 
Snape that slimeball still didn't listen.  Or else Harry thinks 
Lupin was too busy to talk to Snape.

KathyK (who has more to say on Killer!Lupin but should have gone to 
bed two hours ago)