[HPforGrownups] Not Killer!Lupin - dont use presuppositions to "prove" your case

[Iggy McSnurd]

No: HPFGUIDX 82876

> Iggy McSnurd
> ==================
> When Bellatrix was talking to Voldemort after the main
> battle ("But Master, you should know..." or something
> like that...) and was cut off, about a paragraph later,
> she told Voldemort "But he's here..." (paraphrasing)
> and he ignored her.  All details indicate that she was
> trying to tell him that Dumbledore was downstairs.
>
> Samnanya
> ==================
> "All details"? Exactly what details are you referring to?
> Every single detail? Then why didnt JKR just have Bellatrix
> say "Forget Potter! Dumbledore is downstairs!" --and warn
> her master of the danger?

Iggy here:

    "Master, I am sorry, I knew not, I was fighting the Animagis Black!"
sobbed Bellatrix, flinging herselfdown at Voldemort's feet as he paced
slowly nearer.  "Master, you should know----"
    "Be quiet, Bella." said Voldemort dangerously.  "I shall deal with you
in a moment.  Do you think I have entered the Ministry of Magic to hear your
sniveling apologies?"
    "But master -- he is here-- he is below --"
    Voldemort paid no attention.
    "I have nothing more to say to you, Potter," he said quietly.  "You have
irked me too often, for too long.  AVADA KEDAVRA!"
    Harry had not even opened his mouth to resist.  His mind was blank, his
wand pointing uselessly at the floor.
    But the headless golden statue of the wizard in the fountain had sprung
between Harry and Voldemort.  The spell merely glanced off its chest as the
statue flung out its arms, protecting Harry.
    "What --?" said Voldemort, starting around.  And then he breathed,
"Dumbledore!"

    (OotP, ch 35, p812-813, US ed.)

  That scene (not to mention the title of the chapter itself, "The Only One
He Ever Feared") strongly suggests (if not actually shows with 99%
certanty... nothing is 100% certain), that Bellatrix was interrupted while
trying to let Voldemort know that Dumbledore was downstairs.

  I attempted to paraphrase last time because I don't tough type and it's a
pain to have to look at the book, type out half a line, look at the bookm
type half a line... etc.

> Samnanya
> ==================
> Instead of these direct quotes, JKR has skillfully split
> Bella's thoughts so that there can be at least some doubt
> in the reader's mind about what was supposedly meant to be
> said. That is what creates the tension and the page turning
> of a good story. The reader is EXPECTED to assume that Bella
> is trying to warn LV that Dumbledore is below -- but that
> does not have to be the case! And tis uncertainty is also
> what fuels the speculations and theories on websites like
> this. If it was clear that Bellatrix killed Sirius, Snape
> is evil, Harry can't die, and Ginny ends up with the Giant
> Squid, {or whatever other beliefs we each hold so strongly}
> then there would never be that much excitement generated
> about events in the Potterverse. It would be like Hermione
> reading the Sunday Prophet after the fact
> in the last chapter ....
>

Iggy:

I understand that and agree that JKR does a good job at lending tension and
more interest to her stories by leaving taunting little ideas around.  I
also agree that the slight sense of doubt in what your reading as fact is a
great way to write.  (It's one of the reasons I love the movie "Willy Wonka
and the Chocolate Factory."  Gene Wilder is quoted as saying that he refused
to do the movie unless they let him put in that first scene of him limping
along with tha cane and then going into an acrobatic roll when he loses it.
It was so that he could establish that you never know, for the rest of the
movie, whether ot not Wonka was lying or not.)

All I'm trying to point out is that, while there MAY be mysteries hidden in
many of what's said or done in the books... as Freud said:  "Sometimes a
cigar is just a cigar."  Some things can also probably be taken at face
value.

>
> Iggy McSnurd
> ===============
> I think what's happening sometimes is that sometimes people
> look at individual quotes on occasion (and I'm guilty of
> this on occasion as well)and narrow their focus onto that
> as an indicator of something without looking at all the
> circumstances and other actions or dialogue that
> surrounds the quote.
>
> Samnanya
> ==================
> I can say that I am not a generic "people" who "narrow their
> focus onto that without looking at all the circumstances" ---
> that would be damning me and not my argument (and saying
> that you are guilty of it too does not mitigate
> your statement).

Iggy:

Well, for one, I wasn't directing the statement at anyone in particular,
even though the reply was to a given e-mail.  I was taking the time to
comment on a lot of the statements I have seen that I felt warrant that
particular comment.

And adding in the fact that I am also guilty of the same thing sometimes
(and have been in this list, even) was to indicate that I wasn't flaming or
attacking anyone.  I was simply making an observation.

>
> I have read the sections that I quoted many many times
> and am approaching what JKR wrote from an assumption
> (killer!Lupin) that is just as valid as (Good!Lupin) --
> until proven otherwise.  My first reaction to Evil!Lupin
> was about the same as my reaction to a Harry/Draco ship.
> . but the arguments i read altered my perceptions and at
> least opened the POSSIBILITY that Evil!Lupin was valid.
> I would not fling book 7 into the trash if Evil!Lupin was
> a key plotpoint. I would not necesarily be happy but I
> would feel that the seeds had been planted to support
> Evil!Lupin. They dont have to sprout into devils snare
> but at least they were cleverly planted.

Iggy:

Oh, I agree that everything is possible unless stated in cold hard stone
from the author that something is a fact.  It would make for a very boring
read if everything were to be laid out in black and white.

And I still agree that the Evil!Lupin is a possibility.  I just don't
believe it's a very viable one.

If you recall, when this first started out, I had a little fun arguing FOR
that case.  But I also decided to take up the fun challenge of arguing my
viewpoint, that the Evil!Lupin isn't something I see as likely.  Many people
have umped in to support the point that the Evil!/Killer!Lupin is correct.
Well, to remain interesting, the discussion needs a dissenting opinion (or
number of opinions) that's approached in the same, detailed manner as the
originally stated view.

> Samnanya
> ==================
> However, when "people" use presuppositions to support
> their arguments and therefore conclude that their views
> are correct, they are not using logic to refute an argument,
> they are using emotion and prejudicial assumptions.  What
> you say that "sometimes happens" has not happened in my
> analysis. I invite you to rip my arguments apart! Show me
> canon that refutes Evil!Lupin or causes me to say "Oops!"
> I am more than happy to admit to errors of fact or logic
> or bad recollection, and have done so previously on this
> site. I also dont WANT to believe Evil!Lupin, nor do I HAVE
> to believe it, but the arguments made by pippin, myself
> and others are at least in the realm of possibility and
> cannot easily be discounted {until disproved in canon}.
>

Iggy:

Well, for point one, I'll lead you to some of my earlier statements in this
letter that anything is possible unless the author says it's not.

For point two, I'll direct you to my comments in this letter about that SOME
of the arguments I've seen have conformed to my observations about narrowed
focus.  (I said "some".. not "all.")

I am not arguing that my view is the only one, nor am I stating that I have
proven it to be true without a doubt.  Only once have I ever said that a
case was closed, so far as my view was concerned... and that was about how
Petunia knew about the Dementors.  If I am ever proven wrong on any
conclusions I have reached, then so be it... and in some cases, I would be
delighted.  It'll just let me know what I need to work on in my analytical
reasoning and in the hunches I get.

Personally, one of the reasons I enjoy being on this list is because I love
a good debate.  *grin*  So I encourage people to debate with me and with
other people.

>
> samnanya
> who does not believe in Harry's feelings towards centaurs.....

Iggy:

Which feelings would those be?

> Samnanya
> ==================
> keep on posting Iggy! This is not personal......
>

Don't worry.  The only way I'd take something like this personally is if you
said something to the effect of "Yer a jerk and a moron, Iggy."  Just as I
don't take many things personally, I expect that others don't take things I
say personally as well, especially when I make general statements.  (If I
call YOU a jerk or a moron specifically, THEN you can take it personally.
*grin*)

I've worked in customer service on and off for over 15 years... when you
work in jobs like that, you get a thicker skin than most other jobs.  (In
fact, the first bit of advice I give anyone coming into a CS related job is
"Never take anything personally, and don't take your frustrations home with
you.")


Keep the debates raging!  *grin*

Iggy McSnurd
the Prankster

"THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
  (but I'm stuck here.)"

-- ABS FIRECAT