Pippin, you've done it again! (Was -who will betray the Order?)

[KathyK]

No: HPFGUIDX 82913

The FoxyDoxy wrote:

>>I don't see how, with all the evidence that points in that 
direction,  you can still call him a *decent* person. Lupin has 
deliberately put thousands of lives in danger over the years<<

Salit replied: 
>How so? You mean because he was a werewolf? What exactly could he 
do about that, other than commit suicide (which is not something that
most people do)?<

KathyK:

It's true, Lupin can't help being what he is.  Recall, though, while 
at Hogwarts he and his friends spent numerous full moons running 
freely around the grounds and in the forest.  Lupin even says, 'And 
there were near misses, many of them.' (PoA, US paperback 355) If he 
were really concerned about the safety of others he would have 
remained in the Shrieking Shack.  

They endangered students, teachers, and the inhabitants of nearby 
Hogsmeade.  That's a great many people.  How many years did this go 
on?  The point is that even though he knew what he was and how 
dangerous it was he refused to take the precautions to ensure he 
didn't hurt anyone.  And it wasn't up to his friends to get him to 
do what was right.  They can't be blamed for his poor choices.  
 
Doxy:

>>he has betrayed Dumbledore's trust<<

Salit:

>If you refer to the fact that he did not tell DD about their 
escapades while he was in school, this may have been irresponsible 
but no worse than what his friends (the illegal animagi) did.<

KathyK:

Yes, but Dumbledore hadn't gone to great lengths to help the 
others.  Lupin was the only one who wouldn't have been allowed at 
the school because of his condition.  Dumbledore got him in and kept 
his secret.  He also ensured that Lupin would not endanger the other 
students and teachers.  Lupin's disregard for what Dumbledore did 
for him so that he could have some fun with his friends is a greater 
betrayal of trust than the other three.

Salit:

>If you mean because he did not tell DD that Sirius was an animagus, 
there is his own explanation (that he was ashamed of his youthfull 
transgressions). I also suspect that deep down he never completely 
accepted that Sirius was evil.<

KathyK:

Lupin's explanation doesn't cut it.  It makes him an awful coward if 
he's not evil.  To put the entire population of Hogwarts in danger, 
especially Harry, because he was *ashamed* that he'd betrayed 
Dumbledore's trust is ridiculous.  If he were so ashamed, why not 
atone for it by coming clean about Sirius being an animagus?  And he 
knew Sirius wasn't evil because he's evil himself. ;-)

Doxy:

>>He must have done something for them to not even consider him for 
the secret keeper job.<<

Salit:

>They knew that one of them was the traitor. They suspected him. That
was a mistake on their part. How does that prove his guilt?<

KathyK:

What I believe Doxy is trying to communicate is that there must be 
some reason that they suspected Lupin might be the spy.  As in he 
must have done something to cause them to become suspicious.  Unless 
of course they just decided that even though he's their good friend, 
he's a werewolf and therefore untrustworthy.  That seems unlikely.

Doxy:
 
>>(Side note: Why is Lupin's name so conspicuously absent during the 
discussion between McGonagall, Flitwick, Hagrid, & Fudge at the 3 
broomsticks? He doesn't even get an honorable mention. He was 
working at the school, it's not like they could have just forgotten 
about him.)<<
 
Salit:

>Why should they mention his name? They were describing Sirius' 
capture. Lupin wasn't anywhere there, was he?<

KathyK:

But they also touched on James, Peter, and Sirius while they were at 
school.  Dropping Lupin in there is not completely irrelevant when 
considering that Lupin now works at Hogwarts *and* he was, along 
with Peter, one of Sirius and James' best friends.  It would be an 
interesting detail, I would think.
 
Salit:

>He is the one who stops Harry from running after Sirius.<

KathyK:

Yes, because he thought Harry still had the prophecy and he didn't 
want to lose that.  Besides by that point Dumbledore had turned 
toward the dais and seen Sirius.  It would have blown Lupin's cover 
to just let Harry go running into the archway if he could stop it.

Salit:

>Sorry, I read all these arguments and I see absolutely no evidence 
in the plot to the claim that Lupin killed Sirius. But there is 
quite a few clues in the story to tell us how upset Lupin was at 
Sirius' death - his voice breaking, the effort involved in moving 
his eyes from the archway. He sounded as if every word caused him 
pain. Hardly the image of a cold blooded murderer...<

KathyK:

I agree he was upset at Sirius' death--but that doesn't mean he 
didn't do it. ;-)

Salit:

>There is Bellatrix behaviour and the text which show that she was 
the one responsible, and she has shown herself to be extremely 
capable fighter.<

KathyK:

But once again, the text doesn't say where the jet of light comes 
from and Bellatrix never says anywhere that she's the one who killed 
Sirius, even when she's taunting Harry.  Why not gloat then?

Salit:
 
>Lupin's role in the group was to look out for the kids. I think it 
was very clear from the text. It made perfect sense to send Harry 
(the prime target for the attack) away from the battle. Lupin did 
not want the kids in there - too dangerous.<

KathyK:

Or he knew the kids were the ones who had the prophecy.  And he 
didn't want to lose that so he chose the role of looking out for 
them so he could get his hands on it.



>Salit (who knows she can't convince anyone but decided to respond 
anyway)

KathyK (who knows she won't convince Salit but is having lots of fun 
discussing it)