Unfinished Business (was: did Lupin kill Sirius)

[arrowsmithbt]

No: HPFGUIDX 83124

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" <jwcpgh at y...> wrote:
Lots of snipping
> Laura:
> Cry me a river.  You know you love it.  <beg>

Kneasy:
Shh! Don't tell everybody!  And anyway, all men love Julie London.

> Laura:
>> I'm not talking about ersatz coercive bonhomie (nice phrase). I'm 
> talking about normal, volitional relationships.  He rejects any form 
> of connection except the most superficial, as far as I can see.  And 
> he might well have done so under less dramatic circumstances.  But he 
> can't legitimately go around believing that he has suffered more than 
> others whose families were killed by LV and his little friends. 
> 

Kneasy:
Ta. Rather pleased with  it  myself. I for one refuse point blank to 
embrace workmates, neighbours or indeed any other part  of the human 
race with which I do not  have close emotional ties at the behest of a
self-selected group of patronising, simplistic, 'lets  all love one another'
mental and social gauleiters. I submit that  Snape would agree.

Right. Spleen vented. Let's proceed.

My contention is that he has been in a normal (or  close to normal)
relationship and that this was destroyed by, or at  the instigation of,
Voldemort and that Snape is now taking the position of 'once burned,
twice shy.'
(Doesn't this just tug at the heartstrings?)


> Laura:
> Sure, but what I'm asking is what happens after the catharsis you say 
> he needs.  Let's say he kills LV (which I don't think will happen, 
> but this is more to do with Snape's character than with plot 
> predictions).  My sense is that he wouldn't change one bit.  Yet 
> isn't catharsis supposed to achieve something? 


Kneasy:
We won't know. I'm betting that he won't survive. I'm not sure he wants 
to. Once his aim has been achieved (even if he gets that far), what else 
is left for him?
An alliance made in heaven between Master of Potions and Herbologist
Sprout? Will they wander off into the sunset in a  haze of elixir fumes and
compost residue? No, there's no plausible future  for Snape. 


>Laura:
> I looked through canon and didn't find any other references to 
> Snape's childhood expertise with the dark arts, so yeah, we have only 
> Sirius's comment, which also says that Snape was "famous" for his 
> attraction to the dark arts at school.  That sounds to me like more 
> than personal prejudice.  And if you suspect Sirius of being equally 
> knowledgeable, then who better to call Snape on it?
> 

Kneasy:
I'll repeat my  question: Can Sirius be regarded as objective on the 
subject of Snape? I don't believe so. So  far, canon gives us no examples 
of him performing any Dark Magic at all. Admittedly, he'd be elbow deep
in it after he joined the DE Joy Club, but as a schoolboy? Dubious inference.

> Kneasy previously:
> > Secondly, any teenager who goads, taunts, or 'jokes' another into 
> > extreme danger is not blameless. School Rules? Who could envision 
> > similar circumstances? What would cover the situation?
> > "Rule 17: Attempted manslaughter is not allowed."
> > Sirius should have been punished. He knowingly put Snape in danger. 
> <snip>
> 
> Laura responds:
> Really?  What happened to the idea of personal responsibility?  (Some 
> libertarian you are, Kneasy.)  If someone suggests that you do a 
> certain thing, who has the power to decide whether to do it-them or 
> you?  Even teenagers don't do *everything* their peers tell them to, 
> especially peers they hate.  Snape was so consumed with his desire to 
> get the goods on the Marauders that he didn't stop to think.  His 
> anger is misdirected-he let Sirius make a fool of him.  Snape should 
> be angry at himself for being so gullible.  Sirius acted wrongly and 
> should have gotten a stern lecture but I think that would have been 
> enough.  

Kneasy:
Yes, let's consider personal responsibility.
Did Snape know that he was going into danger?  No.
Did Sirius know  that Snape was going into danger?  Yes.
Who bears the responsibility? Sirius.
Wouldn't *you* say that Sirius had a moral responsibility to Snape?
Or have I  misunderstood your ethics?

Sure, Snape was eager, but to do what? What had he been told?
What was it he suspected or surmised that he would find?
Just what had Sirius said to him? "Go in there and you'll get the true
lowdown on the Gang?" Hardly.

> Laura:
> Well, we've been around before on the subject of Sirius.  All I'll 
> add here is that if Sirius was willing to provoke his powerful and 
> evil family at the age of 11 (according to your argument, because his 
> being sorted into Gryffindor would have been a direct insult to his 
> family), I sincerely doubt that he would ever have been afraid of 
> Snape. 

Kneasy:
If Snape were as good at Dark Magic as Sirius intimated, maybe he
should have been afraid.
I've never considered which House Sirius was in, it's not a fact that
I've ever thought to be critical to events.

>Laura:
> As for the MoM, I can't believe that even you think he 
> wouldn't have come to Harry's defense in a split second.  No one, not 
> even DD, was going to keep him away from the DoM that night.  
> 

Kneasy:
But being Sirius, it all went wrong - again!
He seems to have been remarkably consistent in his ability to screw things
up. (Secret Keeper, showdown with Pettigrew, Shrieking Shack, Kreacher,
Ministry.) Dear, oh dear. Maybe I should consider his School House.
Hufflepuff - with the duffers. Perfectly suited.