Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic)

[Talisman]

No: HPFGUIDX 83543

83324

Talisman, who suspects the subject line is ready for updating, but 
doesn't want to make the thread too hard to follow, adds: 

Annemehr now:
One area that I've snipped out but still have a question, though:
<snip> V seems to think it's not *possible* -- "even I cannot touch 
him there (GoF, p. 657)." I still wonder why he believes that, if OoP
seems to tell us that the protection is only good inside the house. 
<snip>

Talisman now:
I think the answer is Mad-eye Moody.

Let's review:
V IS rather vague about what he means on GoF page 657. I'm not sure 
what he really believes. After all, his main purpose in the 
graveyard is to convince the DE's that he is back in power and all-
knowing.  He may be more interested in bragging that he knows DD's 
plans (and so how to thwart them) than anything else.  

Nevertheless, in saying that he cannot touch Harry "there"/"in his 
relations' care" he suggests plural care-giver relations and a 
larger--though undefined--geographic area, both of which are refuted 
by DD's explanation in OoP.

We have other evidence demonstrating V's lack of information.  We 
know V wouldn't have AK'd Lily if he had anticipated any 
empowerment/ sacrificial blood protection coming from it. And, by 
Spring 1992, he still hadn't figured out the inherent value of the 
sacrifice because neither he nor Quirrell foresaw the burning power 
of Harry's touch. 

V may not have cared about Q's life, per se, but he needed Q alive 
and equipped with hands that could possess the SS and perform the 
immortal body spell. When Q pointed out the burn damage to his 
hands, V screeched "Then kill him, fool, and be done!" (SS 295) 
Not, "I don't care, just get the stone, Stumpy."

It seems V is basically ignorant regarding the consequences of 
Godric's Hollow, and whatever information he does have comes from 
secondary sources.       

So where does V get his information? 

Reviewing V's informational opportunities involves the premise that, 
between Godric's Hollow and GoF, V's only trip back to England was 
the one via Quirrell in SS.

Pippin has argued otherwise, but, though I think the canon is 
against her, I'll address that in a separate response to her post.  
Here, I'll work from the foundation that VaporMort languished as a 
useless rat malady in Albania from Godric's Hollow 1980 to 
Spring/Summer 1991(SS), and then again from Spring 1992 to Summer 
1994(GoF).

As above, I don't think Quirrell, or anyone whose confidence he 
enjoyed, had any relevant information. 

Frankly, DD doesn't tell anyone anything unless they are elite 
members of the Order and need the information to complete a mission, 
or when dissemination of information, true or otherwise, will 
provoke actions conducive to his plans.

The Weasley's don't seem to know why Harry (supposedly) has to 
return to the Dursleys each summer. If Molly was *in* on the 
protection story, she wouldn't have asked DD to let Harry skip 
Privet Drive at the end of GoF, just when V had his body and his 
DE's back and seemingly posed more of a threat than at any time 
since 1980. (GoF 717-18) When she tells Ron that DD said "No," and 
that they'll just have to trust DD because he "has his reasons,"  
the sense is that she is in the dark too, not just withholding 
information.

In fact, we see in SS that DD doesn't give the *protection* 
explanation to McG or Hagrid when they are upset about leaving Harry 
at Privet Drive in the first place.  If he's not telling McG, Hagrid 
or the Weasley's I don't think DD is telling the MoM, either.  So, 
although V had contact with Jorkins and Crouch Sr. before the 
graveyard scene, I don't favor them as sources.

Wormtail would have had access to Harry and Ron's conversations 
about what happened in SS, so he could relate what Harry knew via DD 
about Lily's blood (How clever of DD to tell Harry that part, 
knowing Harry would tell Ron, whose little pocket *pet* just 
happened to be destined for a trip to Albania. Just the right 
information to whet the Stone-deprived V's appetite for Harry`s 
*special* blood.) 

But Wormtail doesn't have any information regarding *relative* 
protection.

Still, Wormtail helps V regain a "rudimentary body" (with the 
unicorn blood/Nagini venom potion) and V starts plotting how to get 
Harry`s blood for his "true rebirth," (GoF 656) with the hapless 
Jorkins supplying the path.

In the course of events, Wormtail and V free Crouch Jr., brew up a 
little polyjuice, and head for Chez Moody.  

After a noisy scuffle, they incapacitate Moody, but keep him packed 
up under an Imperius Curse, not only for hair snippets, but to pump 
him for info (so they can fool DD, ha!)

There it is.  Poor Imperius-ed Moody, I think, is your source for 
what V knows about any relational protections.

And just what DOES Moody know?  Well, you won't be surprised to hear 
that I think DD foresaw/planned that Moody would be the target for V 
& Co., so I expect Moody knew just what DD wanted V to know.

You see how one thing just keeps leading to another.  We'll have to 
rehash all of GoF *in light of OoP* before this is over.


Annemehr:
Okay, now on to the back-and-forth from the thread:
----------------------------------------------------
> Talisman wrote:
> According to DD, the charm that uses the blood link between
> sacrificed one/home owner/shield beneficiary is "the strongest
> shield" he could give Harry. (OoP 836). Either DD is lying, or
> there is no equivalent Plan B.

<snip> 

Annemehr:
Well...I just think the rune charm/sacrifice/blood protection *was*
the plan B, available in case the Fidelius Charm failed (and I agree
that a man as wise as DD would know better than to rely completely on
Fidelius). 

<snip>
Talisman:
Well, since I think that Harry has been stuck at the Dursley's for 
reasons other that protection, I'm not as likely to see it as a back-
up protection plan.

I think DD's greater plan, which is not a Keep-Harry-Safe plan, 
required/requires that V 1)be reduced from his 1980 capacity, 2)be 
reconstituted in a mortal form with a little dab of Harry/Lily`s 
Love-blood 3)have a big final showdown in an arena the bridges with 
the Muggle World, in this case, Privet Drive.

The Fidelius just doesn't do all that.


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Back to the tangential, but fun, subject of the Flesh, Blood and Bone
potion:
> > Annemehr wrote:
> > Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy 
ingredient.
> >
> > Talisman replied:
> > Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV
> (and DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it
> took his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a
> plan which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated.
>
> Annemehr next:
> Yes, V *wanted* to use Harry. Really, really, really badly. V
> believes he has certain advantages by using him. But, he didn't
> *need* him.
>
> Talisman next:
> Sure, he could have used other blood and just put up with having 
his
> body burnt like Quirrell's if Harry got him in another SS grip. 
But,
> there was no way he'd do that as long as he had ANY means of 
getting
> at Harry. He doesn't just want a body, he wants a body that's going
> to defeat his fated adversary. And for that, he *needs* Harry's
> blood. Free will or not, it was eminently predictable that LV would
> go for Harry's blood.

Annemehr now:
Yes, that is true. But the reason for the gleam *does* exist. So it
would follow from this that V really, really *should have* wanted or
needed *not* to use Harry. Either that, or V at once *both* needed to
use Harry and not to use him. :-P once again, from V's point of view!

Talisman now: 
As we've been discussing above, V doesn't seem to understand the 
implications of Lily's blood any further than someone else 
(funneling DD's version of the info) tells him. DD is gleaming 
because he understands what V clearly does not.  Since V doesn't 
have a clue, the ways in which Harry's blood will ultimately work 
against him are not a factor in his selection process. 

Annemehr now:
Am I seeing a pattern here?
1) If V cannot overcome the Fidelius Charm, the Potters are 
protected,
though confined. If V does overcome the Fidelius Charm, V is
vaporised and Lily and James are dead, but Harry, at least, is even
better protected.

Talisman now: 
DD's plan is not about keeping Harry safe, and the Fidelius in no 
way replaces the many (if not 12) uses of Lily/Harry's blood. 

Annemehr now:
2) If V fails to get Harry for the resurrection potion and uses
someone else, he gets his old body back but still cannot touch Harry.
If V is successful in getting Harry for the potion, he doesn't have
to worry about touching Harry, but DD now has the "gleam" factor to
work with.

Talisman now:
With V working (unwittingly) in concert with DD, there is just no 
way he wouldn't get Harry's blood.  DD would have shipped him a 
flask under anonymous cover, if it came to that.

Moreover, DD's goal isn't to avoid Voldmortian touching--which is 
hardly the greatest threat to Harry--or even to keep Harry safe.  
His goal does include V's final retirement, which requires the 
inclusion of that lovey-dovey blood in V's body.  There is no 
acceptable Plan B.


Annemehr:
Dumbledore brilliantly makes everything a two-edged sword for
Voldemort. There's contingency planning for you! I wonder if this
strategy will become apparent in other areas? I will think about that
in the context of Harry's learning Occlumency or not...

Talisman now:
Occlumency was strictly about softening Harry's mind and 
facilitating the bait vision in a timely manner. Snape did exactly 
what he was supposed to do.

Dumbledore certainly is brilliant, and his sword is sharp. It cuts 
with every pass.
----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
> Talisman before:
> > d) the voice [during priori incantatem, in the graveyard],
> "almost as though a friend were speaking in his
> ear" that advises H (664);
>
> Annemehr answered:
> It's not a voice. It's the phoenix song, which was the sound he
> connected to DD and it was *almost* as though a friend was speaking
> in his ear. Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart, and
> strikes fear into the evil. And when Harry answered, he answered 
the
> *music.*
>
> Talisman next:
> That's quite poetic, but Harry didn't answer, he followed advice.
>
> He responded to something that sounds a lot like telepathy to me. A
> song that gives hope is one thing, an internal voice that sounds
> like Dumbledore and gives good, specific advice is another.

Annemehr now:
It depends on how you interpret the voices Harry "hears" in his head.
I've always interpreted them as his own "inner voice" (even when it
sounds like Hermione's -- that one's somwhere in OoP) rather than
something magical. It's like my own inner voice I often hear (um,
should I be admitting that?). 

Talisman now:
I'm not familiar with any events analogous to the graveyard voice, 
could you point me to any cites or post #'s?

Annemehr now:
And if Snape is in the graveyard helping Harry (something I agree is 
possible), how would he get Dumbledore's voice into Harry's head?

Talisman now:
I don't spend a lot of time worrying about *how* DD could provide 
advice.  In a world where sound is recorded and relayed in items 
like Howlers and Prophecy Orbs, a world where invisible-on-demand-DD 
can whip up a portkey faster than tuna salad, a world of two-way 
mirrors, Legilimens and *special* means of rapid communication 
between members of the Order, heaven knows how many explanations 
there could be for the presence of DD's voice. Certainly, Snape 
needn't be the source.


Annemehr:
Though I do take your point that "Don't break the connection" is 
very specific, it would be an obvious reaction even to Harry -- it's 
preventing LV from trying to curse him again.

Talisman:

I'm not sure that the instinctual reaction wouldn't be to break and 
run. Though I grant you that the fact that Voldie seems unhappy 
*would* be encouraging.  

Still, it would be rather horrific, staring into that nasty 
reptilian face with the DE's seething all around you, and you`d have 
the sense pretty quickly that you couldn`t stand there forever. 

If you didn't think you had any better spell to use than 
_Expelliarmus_ (Though may I point out to those who bash Snape as a 
teacher that Harry has the Potions Master to thank for this life-
saving move) your best bet would be to count on the element of 
surprise and run for it while Voldie still had that astonished look 
on his face.  

And, it's handy that the advice came right at the time when holding 
on was becoming really hard to do, what with the powerful 
shuddering, and beads of golden light sliding toward him, and his 
wand so hot he thought it would burst into flames.  

If the advice were just Harry's internal monologue, I'm surprised we 
didn't hear any second-guessing.

And, again, as in the my last post, I wouldn't discount the fact 
that JKR has given us a nudge toward seeing extra protection by 
previously educating us about the parameters of the Reverse Spell.
 

------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------

> Talisman wrote:
[...]
> You also have to join the Graveyard Scene to the rest of the book.
> If you take all the evidence in GoF that DD planned for the
> Graveyard Scene and was totally on to Fake!Moody, it negates the
> possibility that he didn't have protections in place.

Annemehr:
I missed the evidence that DD was on to Fake!Moody -- and I haven't
read GoF yet since you first said that he was. When exactly did DD
catch on? Are you asserting he knowingly send Fake!Moody into the
Forest to search for Crouch Sr. (and murder him), or is this event
what tipped him off?

Talisman:
DD was on to Fake!Moody before he showed up at Hogwarts. We'll have 
to start at the beginning in a new thread about GoF. (Though now I'm 
never going to get to my Snape stuff, let alone the Cult of the 
Severed Head business.  If analysis of one scene can evoke so many 
questions, a book's worth will likely entangle me for years.)


Talisman, who has at least three other posts to get out before we 
start all that.