Guilty Again (Was Death chamber/ancient magic)

annemehr annemehr at yahoo.com
Wed Oct 22 15:41:15 UTC 2003


No: HPFGUIDX 83324

Now we're coming down to specifics on this thread, so I've snipped out
great chunks of it where I now understand and mostly agree with Talisman.

One area that I've snipped out but still have a question, though:
Talisman pointed out that it was much better, for secrecy's sake, that
Voldemort whisk Harry away from the heart of the maze during the TWT
in order to take his blood and kill him.  I agree.  This explains why
V would not *want* to have Crouch Jr. kidnap Harry from Little
Whinging, say, right after Harry returned following his fourth year. 
But, V seems to think it's not *possible* -- "even I cannot touch him
there (GoF, p. 657)."  I still wonder why he believes that, if OoP
seems to tell us that the protection is only good inside the house. 
I'm probably driving Talisman around the bend, though, since she's
said she has more to say on the subject, but the post is not ready
yet...  Still, anyone else feel free to take a stab at it!  ;-)

Okay, now on to the back-and-forth from the thread:  
----------------------------------------------------
> Talisman wrote:
> According to DD, the charm that uses the blood link between 
> sacrificed one/home owner/shield beneficiary is "the strongest 
> shield" he could give Harry.  (OoP 836).  Either DD is lying, or 
> there is no equivalent Plan B.
> 
> I actually think that the blood shield 1) is important for 
> undisclosed reasons 2) will play a role before the end of the 
> series, BUT 3) I also think DD has lied about its import so far, and 
> 4) I especially don't think it's "protection" explains/justifies the 
> 10+ years of abuse to which DD consigned Harry. 
> 
> Watch out Annemehr, in saying that you think DD had other options to 
> keep Harry safe, you are doing a pretty good job of nailing DD as a 
> liar, too.

Annemehr:
Well...I just think the rune charm/sacrifice/blood protection *was*
the plan B, available in case the Fidelius Charm failed (and I agree
that a man as wise as DD would know better than to rely completely on
Fidelius). Then, *if* the Fidelius Charm had held, DD is merely
consigning the whole Potter family to, say, decades in hiding, rather
than Lily and James to death and Harry to an abusive home.  In other
words, the strongest shield DD could give Harry, since it involved
deaths and child abuse, wouldn't be deployed unless Fidelius proved
inadequate.  Of course, I am aware that you may have further arguments
against my scenario that you intend to post in "D.O.L.L.A.R.," so I
haven't heard your last words on the subject!   
-------------------------------------------------------
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Back to the tangential, but fun, subject of the Flesh, Blood and Bone
potion:
> > Annemehr wrote:
> > Enemies are a dime a dozen for Voldemort: another easy ingredient.
> > 
> > Talisman replied: 
> > Well, that's what Wormtail thought,too. (GoF 8-9; 656) But LV 
> (and  DD)knew better. LV had a very specific enemy in mind, and it 
> took  his whole elaborate plan in GoF to get him (GoF 9-10; 657), a 
> plan which DD "gleamingly" co-opted/facilitated.
> 
> Annemehr next:
> Yes, V *wanted* to use Harry. Really, really, really badly. V 
> believes he has certain advantages by using him. But, he didn't 
> *need* him.
> 
> Talisman next: 
> Sure, he could have used other blood and just put up with having his 
> body burnt like Quirrell's if Harry got him in another SS grip.  But 
> there was no way he'd do that as long as he had ANY means of getting 
> at Harry. He doens't just want a body, he wants a body that's going 
> to defeated his fated adversary. And for that, he *needs* Harry's 
> blood.  Free will or not, it was eminently predictable that LV would 
> go for Harry's blood.

Annemehr now:
Yes, that is true. But the reason for the gleam *does* exist.  So it
would follow from this that V really, really *should have* wanted or
needed *not* to use Harry.  Either that, or V at once *both* needed to
 use Harry and not to use him.  :-P once again, from V's point of view!

Am I seeing a pattern here?
1) If V cannot overcome the Fidelius Charm, the Potters are protected,
though confined.  If V does overcome the Fidelius Charm, V is
vaporised and Lily and James are dead, but Harry, at least, is even
better protected.

2) If V fails to get Harry for the resurrection potion and uses
someone else, he gets his old body back but still cannot touch Harry.
 If V is successful in getting Harry for the potion, he doesn't have
to worry about touching Harry, but DD now has the "gleam" factor to
work with.

Dumbledore brilliantly makes everything a two-edged sword for
Voldemort.  There's contingency planning for you!  I wonder if this
strategy will become apparent in other areas?  I will think about that
in the context of Harry's learning Occlumency or not...

----------------------------------------------------------  
---------------------------------------------------------- 
> Talisman before:
> > d) the voice [during priori incantatem, in the graveyard], 
> "almost as though a friend were speaking in his 
> ear"  that advises H (664); 
> 
> Annemehr answered:
> It's not a voice. It's the phoenix song, which was the sound he 
> connected to DD and it was *almost* as though a friend was speaking 
> in his ear. Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart, and 
> strikes fear into the evil. And when Harry answered, he answered the 
> *music.*
> 
> Talisman next: 
> That's quite poetic, but Harry didn't answer, he followed advice.
> 
> He responded to something that sounds a lot like telepathy to me.  A 
> song that gives hope is one thing, an internal voice that sounds 
> like Dumbledore and gives good, specific advice is another.

Annemehr now:
It depends on how you interpret the voices Harry "hears" in his head.
 I've always interpreted them as his own "inner voice" (even when it
sounds like Hermione's -- that one's somwhere in OoP) rather than
something magical.  It's like my own inner voice I often hear (um,
should I be admitting that?). And if Snape is in the graveyard helping
Harry (something I agree is possible), how would he get Dumbledore's
voice into Harry's head?  Though I do take your point that "Don't
break the connection" is very specific, it would be an obvious
reaction even to Harry -- it's preventing LV from trying to curse him
again.

I'll quote GoF, p. 664, speaking of the phoenix song:
"...It was the sound he connected with Dumbledore, and it was almost
as though a friend were speaking in his ear....

/Don't break the connection./

I know, Harry told the music, I know I mustn't..."

Actually, I don't know why I'm arguing this point, given that there
certainly are other odd things going on, except that often enough on
the list, people attribute the voices in Harry's head to something
other than Harry himself and I (in a personal opinion) don't agree. 
Still, I certainly have no explanation for why Harry and V were lifted
away from the graves, or why James (or Lily, depending on your
edition) knew that the Cup would portkey Harry back to Hogwarts.  That
Snape was there and had the presence of mind to cause these things is
the best explanation I've ever read.

------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------ 
 
> Talisman wrote:
[...]
> You also have to join the Graveyard Scene to the rest of the book.  
> If you take all the evidence in GoF that DD planned for the 
> Graveyard Scene and was totally on to Fake!Moody, it negates the 
> possibility that he didn't have protections in place.

Annemehr:
I missed the evidence that DD was on to Fake!Moody -- and I haven't
read GoF yet since you first said that he was.  When exactly did DD
catch on?  Are you asserting he knowingly send Fake!Moody into the
Forest to search for Crouch Sr. (and murder him), or is this event
what tipped him off?
----------------------------------------------------------
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Annemehr
winding down for now and off to do a little "real" work (what, like
this stuff isn't truly important?)








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