Patriotism in the WW?

[Ali]

No: HPFGUIDX 83658

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melissa McCarthy <risako at n...> 
wrote:
>>> There seems to be something of a lack of patriotism in the 
Wizarding World.  The only example I've come across is Seamus' 
enthusiastic support of the Irish team at the Quidditch World Cup.  
There's some awareness that wizards living in other countries do 
some things differently, as in the trouble over Ali Bashir and his 
flying carpet, but I'm not seeing any overt pride in England, simply 
a sense of "some of our ways are not the same as some of theirs."  
The Ministry of Magic deals with the Muggle bureaucracy but seems to 
feel no particular loyalty to it, or to the Queen.  We don't see the 
students singing God Save the Queen in the morning, but that may not 
be significant as there's a great deal that we don't see them 
doing.  (Incidentally, would a real British boarding school have God 
Save the Queen sung?  Growing up in the Canadian public school 
system, I remember O Canada being sung every morning at the start of 
the school day.)<<<

Ali:-

I don't think that what you're seeing is necessarily reflective of 
the WW, but actually British, or perhaps more particularly, English 
society. There is no singing of the national anthem in the morning, 
or swearing allegiance to the flag. Until very recently, many 
Britons had come to see the Union Jack as representing the extreme 
right rather than instilling in us any real sense of patriotism or 
pride. This has changed slightly, but we are not big flag wavers. 
This is a generalism, but the English tend to take their patriotism 
for granted. Perhaps it is our history, but it is almost something 
of an embarassment.

There is mention of the national anthem in GoF "Dean Thomas hopped 
three times around the room singing the national anthem" p. 203 UK 
edition. So, it is used in the WW, but like the English muggle 
world, it is not common place.

* I believe that the national anthem is the British national anthem 
rather than a specific wizarding one, as I'm sure that Harry would 
have noted that it was different. 

** IMO the Scots are more nationalistic than the English, but, 
although Hogwarts is in Scotland, it seems to take students from all 
over the UK.

Melissa:

>>> So, is there patriotism at all in the WW?  Is an individual's 
first loyalty to his/her country as against other countries; does he 
see him/herself first as a subject or citizen of his/her country and 
then as a wizard/witch?  It's possible that patriotism matters in 
the WW, at least somewhat; <<<

Ali:

I'd say yes, there *is* patriotism. When England lost to 
Transylvania in the Quidditch World Cup, Charlie says "I wish 
England had got through, though. That was embarassing" p.59 GoF, UK 
edition. The fact that Harry and the Weasleys support Ireland in the 
World Cup is IMO what would happen if England was knocked out of the 
Football World Cup - *most* people would probably support Ireland. 
(I don't think that England though would necssarily get the support 
of the other "Home Countries" if they were to be the one side 
remaining in a competition).

I think what you are seeing is patriotism, English style, rather 
than wizarding style. I'm not really sure what would come first, 
patriotism towards your country, or belief in your magical status. I 
think that in our own world, people's believes and mores are a 
complicated mix. The danger is of course when the different believes 
come into conflict, but I would think that until that time, wizards 
magic and dedication to their secret society lies side by side with 
their patriotism.
 
> Melissa, reflecting that the English language desperately needs a 
set of words to replace "he/she" and "him/her"!

Well, in sloppy Brit-speak, it has become acceptable to use "they" 
or "their". I say that it is acceptable even if it is not 
grammatically correct as the usage is now very wide spread. Also, 
the BBC have decided it is "ok" according to a BBC newsgroup on 
writing.

Ali

(Whose English and particularly her punctuation is very sloppy)