Fidelius (Re: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 4, Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place)

[KathyK]

No: HPFGUIDX 83760

KathyK, clasping her hands in delight:

Ah, Secret-Keeping.  One of my very favorite subjects...

Jen Reese:

>>>Seeing the Fidelius in action tells me that charm alone would be
unlikely to safeguard the Potters at Godric's Hollow. If a Secret
Keeper can give the location verbally, in writing, possibly someone
could even extract the information with veritaserum or through
Legilimens....the information isn't that protected. I always
pictured the information as somehow being locked inside a person and
there was a convoluted way to extract it, but Dumbledore has
obviously informed many people of Grimmauld Place, so it's not that
extensive of a process.<<<

KathyK:

I, too, have wondered about the use of Legilimency on one who is a 
Secret Keeper.  The use of the piece of paper to divulge the secret 
makes this a very sticky and confusing subject.  But I think it 
would be difficult if not impossible for a Legilimens to find out 
the secret for two reasons.

1.  PoA, US Paperback 205:  

"The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-
Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find--unless, of course, the 
Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it."

I believe the key word above is "chooses."  The Secret-Keeper must 
choose to give away the information.  
If someone were trying to find out information using Legilimency, or 
Veritaserum for that matter, I don't think it would work as the 
Secret-Keeper has not chosen to give away the secret.  Otherwise 
there are too many ways that another person could learn the 
information from an unwitting Secret-Keeper.  Conscious choice makes 
more sense to me at any rate.

This fits with the notes.  The Secret-Keeper writes down the 
information for another person.  They have chosen to give away the 
secret.  Using this manner may be dangerous, and it could fall into 
the hands of an unintended recipient, but for Dumbledore and the 
location of the Order I think it's a calculated risk. 

2.  OoP, US 530, 531:

"Only Muggles talk of 'mind reading.'  The mind is not a book, to be 
opened at will and examined at leisure."

"It is true, however, that those who have mastered Legilimency are 
able, under certain conditions, to delve into the minds of their 
victims and to interpret their findings correctly.  The Dark Lord, 
for instance, almost always knows when somebody is lying to him."

According to Snape, Legilimency is not an easy thing to do.  He's 
also very clear that this is not the same thing as mind reading.  
>From his description of Legilimency it seems to me it would be 
nearly impossible to dig out the Secret even if it could be divulged 
in this manner.  

Voldemort can tell when people are lying to him, but can he reach 
into someone's mind and find the correct information?  Snape doesn't 
say he can do that.  So even the most skilled Legilimens would have 
difficulty "reading" someone for specific information. 
 
So I think the charm is complex and difficult and that it's not easy 
to get the information out of the Secret-Keeper.  

Inge wrote:

>>It doesn't make a lot of sense that Harry had to memorise 
the 'password' unless he would need to use it again. Otherwise he 
could just read the words out loud and then destroy the paper - or 
give it back to Moody.
Then why is it that the other members don't have to say the words to 
get in?
And when Harry uses the fire in Umbridges office one would think 
that the fireplace at Grimmauld Place 12 had a charm on it as well 
so that not anyone who just says "Kitchen, Grimmauld Place 12" can 
get their head inside Sirius' kitchen. But Harry doesn't need 
a 'password' for that.<<
 

Gorda wrote:

>But the secret had already been disclosed to him, so he could use 
the Floo network. 
Presumably until the secret keeper tells you the secret, you are not 
even aware that it exists, so you wouldn't even know that a 12 
Grimmauld Place existed (remember on the street there's a number 11 
and a number 13, until Harry *thinks* about what he read. Reading it 
wasn't enough.)<

KathyK:

Well, I don't know.  I'm sure *someone* other than the Order members 
knows there is a such thing as 12 Grimmauld Place.  Narcissa Malfoy 
and Bellatrix Lestrange come to mind.  I think instead of blinking 
the house out of existence so that no one has ever heard of it, the 
place just becomes hidden.  So Bellatrix and Narcissa could head 
over to Grimmauld Place knowing there was a number 12, determined to 
find it.  But when they arrived they'd just be very confused where 
the houses go right from 11 to 13 and they'd have to wonder why they 
can't find a house they knew perfectly well existed.  Narcissa must 
know Number 12 still exists, particularly, since Kreacher paid her a 
little visit.  
 
Gorda:

>It raises the question about Godric's Hollow: presumably Peter had 
told Sirius where to find the Potters, because when he finds Peter's 
place empty he gets a bad feeling and goes looking for hte Potters. 
So other close friends (Remus, DD, Hagrid?) had been told the 
secret, before Peter went blabbering to LV.<

KathyK:

Just some random comments on who I think was told.  Sirius obviously 
knew.  It was his idea to change to Peter, he was keeping and eye on 
Peter, and Sirius and James would have wanted Sirius to be in the 
know.  Besides, if Peter didn't tell Sirius, it would have drawn 
suspicion to him.  Peter told Sirius in person.  Any others he would 
have had to inform by writing as Dumbledore did in OoP.  

I think they also told Dumbledore, because it just seems like a 
smart thing to do.  I go back and forth with Hagrid.  He was the 
first on the scene ready to take Harry to Dumbledore, so he may have 
known and that's why he responded so quickly.  However, when the 
Potters died, I presume the charm was broken and Dumbledore could 
have told him to go get Harry and if Hagrid didn't know where the 
Potters lived, Dumbledore would be free to tell him.   

Lupin was not in on the big secret, IMO.  According to Lupin and 
Sirius in PoA, the others suspected Lupin as the traitor.  Even if 
he couldn't tell anyone their location, I don't know that letting 
someone they thought might be a spy for Voldeomrt in on the secret 
would be the smartest idea.


Gorda:

>But after the place got blown up, did the charm still exist? 
Otherwise, how could the police come to the place? 
Hagrid says he went to get Harry before the Muggles started swarming 
around... is he just assuming here? Or does he know that the 
Fidelius Charm is lifted after the people it's protecting die? 
Wouldn't little Harry be still protected by Fidelius?<

KathyK:
 
If only we knew for sure if Hagrid was in on the secret or not.  It 
would answer many questions.  I tend to believe Hagrid didn't know 
until James and Lily died.  That is until the question of Harry 
comes up.  Then Hagrid jumps onto the list of people who would have 
to know. Well that was very indecisive and repetetive, wasn't it?  
 
I was only going to write a short response, I swear!  <g>

KathyK (lauging at herself)