Snape and Harry WAS Re: Pensieves objectivity AND: Dumbledore's integrity

[msbeadsley]

No: HPFGUIDX 79845

msbeadsley: The *words* can be demanded (and that will result in 
tremendous success, I'm sure), but the respect the words imply must 
be *earned*; something Snape seems oblivious to or bent on ignoring.

melclaros:  Mea Culpa. Silly me insisting that my own children 
address their own teachers by their titles starting on the very 1st 
day of school.  Silly me for Never, ever (are you listening, Sirius?) 
using the name I used for my son's 2nd grade teacher in private or 
among other parents of children in that witch's class to pass my lips 
in a child's presence. Silly, silly me.

The "tremendous success" I was referring to was the result I expected 
Snape to get; I thought that would be clear, but I failed.  It is 
one, very appropriate, thing, for a parent or guardian or even the 
headmaster to insist that youngsters use respectful titles to 
teachers/elders; Snape's insistence was (IMHO) ineffectual, petty in 
motive, and pathetic.

You sound like Molly here:  "If *I* was Harry's Mum--"  And if you 
were, a LOT of things would be different.  Among other things, he'd 
have grown up with a fierce mother's love; it would have illuminated 
his life for many years instead of merely saving it once.  And yes, 
he likely would have internalized a lot of more appropriate behavior, 
although I think he's done amazingly well, considering.

melclaros:  Those kindergarten teachers damned well should have 
EARNED the right to be called MISS Espey and Miss (damn i can't even 
remember her name!) Stupid of me to insist that he addrewss the 2nd 
grade nazi as MRS (name witheld--only because if i type it i'll start 
screaming).

Maybe I can clarify further.  What has happened is actually not 
(just) that Snape has failed to earn Harry's respect; Harry showed up 
prepared to respect all his teachers ("Wow, somebody who *teaches* 
magic").  Snape actively trashed not only the generic respect Harry 
had but any potential for more.  And your children used respectful 
titles to their elders because they respected *you* (and feared your 
wrath); how can anyone who insists on the trappings with no reference 
to an underlying structure expect what the trapping represent?

I have no issue with your indictment of Sirius here; he was behaving 
toward Snape as Snape behaves toward Harry:  stabbing at chimeras 
from the past.

melclaros:  But it doesn't surprise me, I took flack for years for 
being the only "Mommy" in the playgroup who insisted her children 
address EVERY adult with a courtesy title until instructed otherwise 
by THAT adult.

Well, I was one of the kids who got laughed at for having manners, so 
there!  And I'm glad that titles for elders and please and thank you 
et al were drummed into my head; if nothing else, it gave me more to 
rebel against later.  <kidding!>

melclaros:  Nope, Snape's a b*st*rd all on his own <snip> despite 
what I've said <snip> it never ceases to amaze me why people are 
always so surprised <snip> 

It doesn't exactly surprise me; but it's (he's) broken and needs 
fixing or replacing or some dam* thing.

melclaros:  "He'd never forgive Snape." <snip Harry has a LOT of 
reasons to hate Snape. But he has very, very few (I'm being generous) 
to mistrust him. <snip>

As has been said before:  seems a sophisticated bit of sophistry for 
a fifteen year old boy grieving the closest thing he remembers to a 
parental/fraternal role model.

melclaros:  But there's a LOT of work to be done on Both Sides.

No argument there, as long as we agree on who poisoned the well in 
the first place (and it wasn't James).

msbeadsley: No excuse needed.  Just human nature.  

melclaros:  No, no NO! You know what? If my son (13) had come home 
whining that a teacher had tossed him (physically) out of his office, 
I'd ask <snip>

Yes, Molly.  <g>

melclaros:  But this is likely generational. When I was in school if 
we got in trouble we got in trouble again, worse, at home. Now (and I 
work in a school, I see this every day) if a student so much as looks 
at a student cross-eyed (in the student's opinion) we have parent's 
marching into the office with lawyers.

Trying working on a high school campus for blind and deaf youngsters 
(I did); talk about entitlement!  So yes, I know what you mean there.

A bit OT but relevant I think:  On the other hand, in ninth grade as 
a friend and I entered Math class, I whispered (I thought) a comment 
(I didn't wake up a smart*ss yesterday), which the teacher overheard; 
her response was to swing me around by my arm and slap me across the 
face so hard that my glasses flew off and were broken.  My parents 
didn't threaten to sue, but they did make their displeasure clearly 
known (discipline is fine; a teacher violently out of control 
isn't).  And back in second grade a teacher threatened someone (don't 
honestly remember if it was me) with a whipping; my response:  "If 
you have to resort to violence, you're in the wrong profession."  I 
was simply making an observation then, and I still think so.

<big snip here with stuff others have also said and I addressed in 
another post>

msbeadsley:  <snip> Harry didn't even know the name "Snivellus" <snip>

melclaros:  Oh yes he did. Sirius used that name at Grimmaud when the 
Occlumency topic was 1st brought up. <snip>

I am chastised.  Even chastened.  Momentarily.

melclaros:  Even as snarky as he got, [Snape] never descended to that 
level IN FRONT OF A STUDENT. <snip> Sirius <snip> is an adult 
<snort>. He should NEVER, EVER have used that name in front of Harry. 
If you argue that point I'm going to go tell my son what I called his 
2nd grade teacher while he wasn't around.

(Wait a few years, then let me watch <g>.)  Sirius was a loose cannon 
(not biting) throughout OoP; I think there's general agreement on 
that (and even some general confusion on the dramatic shift from 
GoF).  He made a lot of mistakes.  If you want to compare Snape and 
*Sirius*, then another point:  nothing implies that Snape has been 
anything like as misused by the authorities as Sirius has.  It would 
make me a little crazy, too.

Sandy aka "msbeadsley"