OoP - GUILTY Dumbledore (was Dumbledore's true sorrow motives)

[njelliot2003]

No: HPFGUIDX 80002

Replying to Talisman's post 66983:


Talisman,

Along with a number of other postees, I have to take issue with your 
post which concludes that DD is guilty of cold calculated murder. 
I'm prepared to accept that he is not entirely honest, but I believe 
that he is operating from the purest of motives. My position is 
pretty well summed up by "katrinawitch" who wrote in message 68690: 
 
Quote "Whew! Talisman, some great points you made there, and maybe 
I'm just being sentimental, but I just can't (or maybe don't want to) 
belive that Dumbledore could be that conniving and deliberately use 
Harry (and Sirius) in that fashion. You're making me too sad just 
reading your post!

Dumbledore finally admitted at the end of OOP that he has a weakness 
(e.g. he cared too much for Harry), and this just emphasizes more 
and more that, even though he's "the greatest wizard alive", he's 
human, and makes mistakes, and can be blinded by love.

Do I think DD killed Sirius, in order to verify the prophecy, make 
Harry more focused in his hatred for Voldemort, and put the rest of 
the plan in action? No, defintely not.

I really don't think it was he that stunned Sirius, thus pushing him 
into the veil.

My thoughts are that Dumbledore has finally realized that this is 
all really happening, and he's got a tremendous burden to carry, 
maybe even as much or more of a burden than Harry. He's the leader, 
the one that everyone looks to for protection and advice, the head 
of The Order, and the person Harry has always looked to. Now he's 
got the lives of the entire Wizarding World on his shoulders and 
conscience. He has no choice but to make these sacrifices, and the 
wizards who are in The Order have made the choice to be involved, 
and thus are willing to make those sacrifices too. Sirius included 
(even he said as much...he'd be willing to die for the cause).

In conclusion, I just won't believe that those "twinkling" blue eyes 
and half-moon spectacles are hiding anything but love for Harry and 
hope for the Wizarding World. Guilty, yes. Guilty of love and of 
wanting to do the right thing, but his guilt has finally made him 
realize what's at stake.

Kat" Unquote.

The replies I've read to your post thus far have expressed the 
writer's beliefs and/or feelings about the issues you raise, but I 
want to look a bit deeper. I have quoted your original post belowand 
added my own comments, interpretations, arguments etc. to support my 
contention that a lot of your case is built on speculation. I have 
tried to steer away from speculation myself in making my case for 
DD's innocence. Where I have speculated, I hope I have made this 
overt. Because the text is often open to interpretation and 
incomplete until book 7 is published, there are alternate 
interpretations which are just as valid – I hope. 

I doubt the shrieking certainty to the conclusion of your post: 

"Oh, yes. Sirius had to die. The velvet curtain flies open and 
Talisman, eyes rolling, mouth drooling, clawed hands thrashing, 
shrieks: DUMBLEDORE IS GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!" 

(A digression. It's interesting to speculate on the Talisman as 
demonic shrew quoted above with the Talisman as unrequited mother 
(lover?) who "will go to the grave with an unmet need to give Snape 
a nice warm bubble bath.")

And so to the riposte. 

Talisman:
> As to Dumbledore's specific Decoy!Harry/Chosen!Harry theories, 
> the entrails are not clear. What is clear is that Dumbledore is 
> willing to sacrifice Weapon!Harry in any way necessary to defeat 
> Voldemort.
> 
> What's more, I say, is that Book Five is the Wizengamot in which 
> Dumbledore, for all his noble intentions, is found Guilty!--not 
only of being a cold-hearted manipulator, and Guilty! of being a 
great and harmful liar, but yes--Guilty! of Murder! >>>

Me:
I am new to HPfGU and am not familiar with the Decoy!Harry/ Chosen!
Harry/ Weapon!Harry theories. They sound absolutely fascinating and 
I look forward to reading them. Even if any or all of them are true, 
I don't believe Sirius had to die to achieve the outcomes at the end 
of the book, so there's no reason for DD to kill him.  

Talisman:
> Evidence for the Prosecution:
> (All cites from OoP unless otherwise noted)
> 
> I. The Nature Of Lies is an important theme that informs OoP, 
> probably worthy of a separate post, but consider some examples:
> 
> 1.) Petunia lies about her bases for wizarding knowledge (31) her 
> knowledge of LV (37-8) and her reasons for keeping Harry (41). Are 
> these good or bad lies? Too early to tell.
> 
> 2.) Ginny lies "unblushingly" about chucking dung bombs, and it's 
> charming. (75) We're liking her more already.
> 
> 3.) Mrs. Figg lies--on the witness stand--about seeing the 
> dementors (144) and in so doing saves innocent Harry from the 
> corrupt Wizengamot.
> 
> 4.) Harry tells the truth about LV, and is punished as a liar.
> Umbridge's torturous method of etching "I must not lie" in Harry's 
> bloody skin points up the ironic and pivotal nature of this 
question 
> (267). 
> 
> 5.)Hermione lies to Umbridge about whom they are trying to contact 
> in the fire. (747) The lie saves Harry and the OoP, anything else 
> would have been traitorous.
> 
> 6.) Dumbledore is the biggest liar of all. 

Me: 
Truth/Lies are an important theme in the series. I agree, the nature 
of truth would make a good subject for a separate post. But the 
theme is only relevant here insofar as it can be shown that DD is a 
liar, so I'm not going to comment on the points 1 to 5 above. Except 
for point 3. You say that Mrs Figg lies on the witness stand. I 
couldn't find it. She is corrected during her statement by Madam 
Bones when Mrs Figg says that the Dementors were "running" (OoP pg. 
132 .au ed.) This flusters her, but she did see (and feel) the 
Dementors.
" 'Don't put that away idiot boy! She shrieked. 'What if there are 
more of them around? Oh, I'm going to kill that Mundungus 
Fletcher!'" (Ch 1, pg. 23, last sentence). And over the page in Ch 
2, Mrs Figg says " '
 and now look! Dementors!'" And this is before 
Harry has said a word to her about what just happened. 

Talisman
> Dumbledore has always been willing to lie, e.g. "It was only 
> when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might 
> not have been quite truthful." (SS 214)

Me:
This is the bit where Harry asks DD what he saw in the Mirror of 
Erised. Sure, he probably did lie here. It was an extremely personal 
question and their relationship is hardly one of equals. So I don't 
think DD is obliged to tell the truth. (It seems to me that he might 
have given his answer in such a way as to indicate to Harry that he 
was lying, as Harry realises upon reflection.) All the same, he 
could avoid lying by telling Harry that he's not going to say what 
he sees. I see how this makes you suspicious of DD's honesty, but 
this one example is too trivial to lead me to believe that 
everything he says is untrue or that he can't be trusted on more 
important matters. 

Talisman:
> But in OoP, the frustration we suffer, along with Harry, at 
> Dumbledore's persistent noncommunication, drives home the 
magnitude of his lies by ommision. (Though Hedwig knows we've 
been aggravated with his silence since book one.) The only 
question is: how often does he lie overtly? >>>

Me:
I couldn't agree with you more on the question of how often DD lies 
overtly. As to the aggravation "of his lies by omission", I would 
argue that this is to do with plotting by the author. We readers are 
being kept in the dark just as Harry is, for purposes only JKR 
knows! If DD is deliberately lying by omission, you speculate his 
intent is evil. I, along with others such as katrinawitch, speculate 
his intent is good. 

Talisman:
> II. Let's agree that Dumbledore's lies are all in furtherance of 
> his "noble" plan. A plan, Dumbledore tells us, in which caring 
> about Harry is not permitted.(838) Protecting Harry's utility, 
yes. 
> Furthering Harry's personal happiness or dreams, no.

Me:
DD loves Harry! 
" 'I cared about you too much. I cared more for your happiness than 
your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, 
more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan 
failed. In other words, I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we 
fools who love to act. Is there a defence? I defy anyone who has 
watched you as I have – and I have watched you more closely than you 
can have imagined – not to want to save you more pain than you had 
already suffered.'" (pg. 739 .au ed.)  How can you believe DD would 
cause Harry more pain by killing Sirius after this honest 
declaration of love and affection? 

> Group members have long observed that Dumbledore facilitates 
Harry's confrontations with the Dark Lord. Harry recognised that 
> himself from the start:". . .instead of stopping us, he just 
> taught us enough to help." (SS 302) 
> 
> Dumbledore is always there to make sure his Weapon!Harry isn't 
> destroyed (is he testing whether Harry is "the one," or honing 
> Chosen!Harry's skills?).
> 
> Nonetheless, these machinations are undertaken without 
consideration for Harry's needs and preferences. Just part of a 
> cold-hearted, "noble," plan.

Me: 
Harry's needs and preferences are to play the hero, to go after Big 
V. I see nothing sinister or "cold-hearted" (and neither does Harry 
going by the same quote from SS pg. 302 you use above) with DD 
helping Harry to be Harry whether it's Weapon!Harry or Chosen!Harry. 
Up until OoP it doesn't matter whether Harry is aware he's part of a 
plan. During OoP it does matter because DD's failure to recognise 
how grown up Harry is, and therefore tell all, contributes to 
Sirius' death. Again I have to say that being kept in the dark about 
what DD has been doing to assist Harry as he's been "watching him 
more closely than he can have imagined" is not DD's machinations; 
it's JKR's.  "agnesbrauner" agrees, in Message 76512. 

> (Small rant here where I say that consigning Harry to 10 years of 
> child-abuse has more to do with Dumbledore's discomfort at being 
> around someone he is "using" than the fact LV might come back in 
> 10 years. (835) In 10 years Harry is at Hogwarts and the "Petunia 
> pact" only protects him a few months or weeks out of the year.) 

Me:
You attributing discomfort as DD's reason for banishing Harry to the 
Dursley wilderness is pure speculation. Nothing wrong with 
speculation – where would HPfGU be without it? – but I am drawing 
attention to it because so much of your case is built on suspicion, 
not facts! 

> So, to recap, Dumbledore lies and manipulates to further his cold-
> hearted plan, which always includes maneuvering Harry into/through 
> confrontations with LV. 

Me:
So to "recap", DD is watching over and helping Harry to go after 
whomever and whatever he wants, to fulfill his needs and desires as 
best he (Harry) knows how. DD is acting out of love for the boy, 
love which grew as he got to know Harry, whatever his feelings were 
before Harry arrived at Hogwarts. 

Talisman:
> No exception in OoP in which I believe Dumbledore orchestrates 
> Harry's conflict with LV, and effectuates Sirius's death.
> Why Sirius's death you say? Because killing Sirius achieves 4-5 of 
> Dumbledore's goals:
> 1.) It Activates "the power the Dark Lord
> knows not" (841), which in turn;
> 
> 2.) Allows Dumbledore to further Verify that
> Harry is the chosen one;
> 
> 3.) It prepares Harry to receive the Prophecy
> (sort of cocking Weapon!Harry);
> 
> 4.) Harry's lasting love-grief becomes Voldemort-
> Legilimency/Posession Repellent, thereby 
> ensuring Weapon!Harry's utility to "the
> noble plan," and incidently;
> 
> 5.) It gets rid of someone who does care
> about Harry the person, and who would disobey 
> Dumbledore to further Harry's happiness.

Me:
It's quite possible that Sirius' death achieves DD's 'goals' 1 to 4. 
The question is whether DD cold-bloodedly orchestrated the death in 
order to test his pre-meditated plan/goals, or whether they were 
outcomes of an accidental and tragic death. Looking at the same 
evidence, you point the finger of blame, I wring the hands of 
anguish. 

Point 5 needs further examination. I agree that Sirius can't be 
trusted to obey DD. We see evidence of this when Sirius goes in dog 
form to farewell Harry on platform 9¾. We know he is a rebel and 
risk-taker: Sirius is disappointed that Harry turns out to be less 
like his father than he thought because Harry cautions him against 
turning up at Hogsmeade for a lark (OoP pg. 273 .au ed). Sirius is 
surprised that Harry hasn't asked what Voldemort is up to on his 
first night at Grimmauld Place (OoP pg. 83 .au ed – the following 8 
pages of conversation are very instructive of Harry and Sirius' 
relationship and Sirius' relationships to and within the Order). 
Given his love of a good fight and his larrikinism, I believe Sirius 
would have directly disobeyed DD the same night when the 
conversation turned to the 'weapon' being sought by Big V. I think 
Sirius was on the point of telling Harry a lot more than he "needs 
to know" (pg. 84) when Molly came back. She bullied Sirius into 
keeping quiet and the other adults fell in behind her. But if Molly 
hadn't come back at just that moment, well ... one can only 
speculate what Sirius would have said. (I can imagine Sirius giving 
a full and complete explanation of the 'weapon' if Harry came out 
and asked him directly when they were alone together.)

I think Sirius would have helped Harry into the fight with Big V. 
Sirius' idea of happiness would have been to have Harry become a 
member of the OoP and Harry would have gone along with that. 

You imply that Sirius has Harry's best interests at heart more than 
DD and that having Sirius around would have resulted in a happier 
outcome for Harry. I think the outcomes would have been similar. 
Both DD and Sirius have similar ends in mind for Harry – they would 
have disagreed on the means of achieving them. Sirius (correctly?) 
realised that Harry was old and mature enough to know things sooner 
than DD; and had Sirius been allowed to fully answer Harry's 
questions, Harry would have had his eyes opened sooner. Harry is 
Harry and he will go after Big V, *whatever he knows*, until one of 
them dies.

Talisman:
> The Evidence Continues:
> 
> III. Dumbledore admits Sirius's death is his fault. (825)
> 
> Dumbledore admits that by not warning Harry about the trick 
> that Dumbledore, himself, saw coming, he allowed Harry to fall for 
> it. (N.B. At the same time Dumbledore is busy warning experienced 
> adult wizards to beware LV's tricks so that they won't fall for 
them 
> (96).)

Me:
DD is warning the WW of the return of Big V in order to thwart his 
evil plans to amass his power base by stealth. Hence the speeches to 
the Wizengamot and the Confederation which got him ousted from one 
and demoted from the other. The irony is that if DD had been 
believed, then Sirius' name could have been cleared and he wouldn't 
have had to remain in hiding. How much more help could Sirius have 
been to Harry and interfering to DD's plans then? 

DD takes responsibility for Sirius' death – he does share some of 
the blame for not being more open with Harry. It doesn't follow that 
he killed Sirius outright, or used a hex that appeared to come from 
someone else, or floated Sirius through the veil when he was only 
stunned. 

Talisman:
> IV. Dumbledore is aware that Sirius's nature--brave, clever, 
> energetic--makes him unlikely to stay home when other's (esp. 
Harry) are in danger. (825) Yet Dumbledore confines him to his 
> miserable-memory-laden childhood home.

Me:
Did DD "confine" Sirius to Grimmauld Place against his will? I doubt 
it. His participation in the OoP and his stay at his old house was 
voluntary because he believed in what DD was doing. I believe he 
sacrificed his needs to what he saw as those of the greater good. 

Talisman:
> Dumble dore does not contradict Harry when Harry points out how 
> Sirius hated being shut up, saying "that's why he wanted to get 
out last night." (834)
> 
> In fact, if he's not faking, Dumbledore's icy facade appears to 
> crack here: guilt, guilt, guilt. 

Me:
You read 'icy' façade, I read 'cool, calm and collected'. DD has 
done remarkably well to retain his cool in the face of everything 
Harry has (literally) thrown at him in the office. In any case, the 
reason he 'cracks' here is not guilt; it's because he's come to the 
moment he's most dreading – the time for telling all: "I have 
watched you struggling under *more burdens than any student who has 
ever passed through this school* and I could not bring myself to add 
another – the greatest one of all." (pg. 740, my emphasis) If DD 
feels like that about it, it's no wonder he's getting emotional, 
especially as this follows Harry's blinding rage over a death for 
which DD feels responsible. 

Talisman:
> (Pan back to Sirius saying,"Personally I'd welcome. . .a deadly 
> struggle for my soul[, it] would have broken the monotony nicely." 
> (82)
> 
> Not only does Sirius hate confinement, and love Harry, but he does 
> suffer from Snapes taunts about uselessness and cowardice. 
> 
> Dumbledore says not, but Dumbledore lies. (833) We see for 
ourselves that Snape's taunting hurts Sirius deeply. Sirius and Snape 
> draw wands over it (518-20) and battle is only averted by Mr. 
> Weasley's arrival. 

Me:
Why wouldn't DD believe that "Sirius was much too old and clever to 
have allowed such feeble taunts to hurt him" (pg. 734). He makes the 
same mistake about Snape and Occlumency lessons. "I thought 
Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father – I 
was wrong." (pg. 735) 

DD does not 'lie' to Harry here. He was not witness to the near duel 
between Snape and Sirius. I expect S. and S. behaved a lot more 
civilly in DD's company and in the company of other adults in the 
Order. As a man of impeccable morals and manners, DD is merely 
guilty of believing that his friends are capable of the same 
standards he sets himself. 

Talisman:
> Dumbledore knows that Snape stopped giving Occlumency lessons, 
that LV has been gaining more and more access to Harry's mind, and 
> that (just a lucky guess?) LV will bate Harry with Sirius. 
> 
> Dumbledore knows as well that if Sirius is told that Harry has 
> stepped into LV's trap, nothing will stop Sirius from going to 
> Harry's rescue. For extra insurance, let's just have Snape tell 
him to stay home, shall we? (830)

Me:
This is all just plotting to trigger the final showdown. The plot 
relies on implausibilities and coincidence like:
 
*Umbridge would go off into the Forbidden Forest alone 
*DD didn't write Harry a letter since they couldn't talk face to 
face. He could easily have explained about Occlumency and the 
possibility of Sirius being used as bait by Big V and why he was 
avoiding eye contact.Or someone else could have explained why 
Occlumency is important. All Harry is ever told is that it is 
important and to just do it! This approach is not guaranteed to get 
Harry's attention. 
*Sirius just happened to be upstairs, or out of earshot, when Harry 
called on the Floo network
*Harry forgot all about the 2 way mirror. (Digression to point out 
one of my gripes about JKR. Why did she introduce the mirror? Is it 
just another example of her many cruelties to Harry?)

*You even mention some plot elements that don't ring true below, 
though you don't see them that way. 
*Snape didn't search the forest.
*Snape doesn't assume the kids are in danger from creatures in the 
forest?
*It's convenient that DD can't be contacted with one of the 'special 
ways' known only to the Order.

There has to be some event that triggers the final showdown. Having 
the baddie set a trap with the person most loved by the hero as bait 
is a timeless device that has been used in countless stories. All 
the above function to bring on the climax, not show DD's evil 
subterfuge. 

That's not to say that Sirius has to be the one who dies just 
because the plot contrives to get him into the action. Snape telling 
Sirius to stay home is entirely in character for Snape, given his 
past taunts. 

Talisman:
> Indeed, let's look at Snape's behavior on the fatal night.
> 
> O.K. Snape understands from Harry's cryptic message that LV is 
> springing his trap.
> 
> Then Snape sees Harry go off into the forest. Snape doesn't see 
> Harry come out for awhile (how long??)
> 1) Contrary to what I've seen posted in the OoPFaq, Snape NEVER 
> searches the forest. Dumbledore merely "says" (if we can trust 
him) that Snape "intended" to search for Harry. (830) And, he 
> only "intends" that after sending the OoP to the M.O.M.
> 
> Why would Snape assume Harry was at M.O.M.? Umbridge went 
> into the forest. Umbridge remained in the forest until Dumbledore 
> fetched her. Why wouldn't it be MUCH more likely that Harry was 
> being assailed by Umbridge/centaurs/giants/werewolves/spiders/etc. 
> when he didn't come out soon enough to suit Snape? 
> 
> Snape has special ways of communicating with OoP members (830), 
> surely that includes Dumbledore? Why is Dumbledore just a little 
too late arriving at Grimmauld Place? Just after Sirius left. (831) 
> How long did it take to interrogate Kreacher (assuming that was 
even necessary)? Why is Dumbledore so tardy to the party? 
> 
> No matter, he behaves badly enough when he arrives.
> 
> V. Dumbledore's guilty behavior at the M.O.M.
> includes his late arrival (OoP been fighting for 5 pages). 
> 
> But, he dashes down the steps to the floor of the Death Chamber, 
and almost instantly neutralizes the Death Eaters. (805)
> Oddly, "[o]nly one couple were still battling." (805) Bellatrix 
and Sirius. Bellatrix misses (with what is apparently a stunning 
spell) 

Me:
DD does not neutralise the DE's almost instantly. The text is 
confused here. 

"... when the Death Eaters nearest realised he (DD) was there and 
yelled to the others. One of the DE's ran for it, scrabbling like a 
monkey up the stone steps opposite. DD's spell pulled him back as 
easily and effortlessly as though he had hooked him with an 
invisible line – Only one pair were still battling ..." (pg. 710). 
The battling pair is Sirius and Bellatrix. Then we read about 
Sirius' death and Harry's reaction to the end of the chapter. 

In the next chapter, (pg. 712) after several more para.s of Harry's 
reaction we read 

"There was movement going on around them, pointless bustling, the 
flashes of more spells. To Harry it was meaningless noise, the 
deflected curses flying past them did not matter, ..." Over on page 
713 we read: "DD had most of the remaining DE's grouped in the 
middle of the room, seemingly immobilized by invisible ropes... 
behind the dais there were still flashes of light, grunts and cries –
 Kingsley had run forward to continue Sirius' duel with Bellatrix." 

On page 710 it appears there is only one pair (Sirius & Bellatrix) 
still battling after DD hooks the escaping DE, so what were the 
others doing? Escaping? Yet there still seems to be battling on page 
712 after Sirius' death. On page 713 we learn that DD has *most* of 
the DE's immobilised and Kingsley is still battling Bellatrix. 

I think that far from ignoring Sirius, DD is preoccupied with 
rounding up the escaping DE's (there must be half a dozen of them in 
the room) to prevent them disapparating. He's left Bellatrix alone 
because she's caught up with first Sirius and then Kingsley. That's 
all. 

Talisman:
> and then . . . JK drops to a new, one sentence paragraph, for the 
> crucial shot.
> 
> "The second jet of light hit him . . ."
> 
> The jet is the subject of the sentence.
> The person who fired the shot, and the color of the jet, are 
> mysteriously missing from the sentence. 
> 
> Sure Bellatrix had just finished a "first," shot. So had 
Dumbledore.
> How about "the second jet aimed at him?" Maybe even magiked to 
look like it came from Bellatrix's direction?
> 
> Again:
> 
> 1. Dumbledore doesn't neutralize Bellatrix;
> 2. JK is coy about where jet came from.

Me:
Nor is there any instance elsewhere in the series of spells being 
made to appear to come from someone else? There is absolutely no 
evidence that the killing jet came from DD. It's not 100% clear it 
came from Bellatrix, but she seems to think she killed him and she 
ought to know: "Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream" 
(pg. 711). You're right. JKR is coy about where the jet came from, 
but to suggest DD magicked it from her direction is stretching a 
very thin wand. 

Talisman:
> You don't like it? Well try it another way.
> 
> VI. Let's say Dumbledore just takes advantage of what should have 
> been another stunning spell. Why does it take Sirius "an age" to 
> fall? (806) Is is just Harry's subjective view?

Me:
It is possible it is Harry's subjective point of view. The text 
reads "seemed" to take Sirius an age to fall. It is not uncommon for 
witnesses to catastrophic events to report that time appears to 
stretch. It could be this phenomenon that Harry experiences or it 
could be that DD does indeed float Sirius through the veil. 

My turn to speculate. I suggest that Sirius was not stunned by 
Bellatrix' jet of light of unspecified colour, but was in fact 
killed by it. DD knowing he was dead deliberately floated Sirius 
through the veil - as an act of kindness to Harry. Because Sirius is 
behind the veil, Harry will be able to contact him later. 

My suspicion of this comes from a hint dropped by Luna Lovegood when 
she and Harry discuss the death of her mother. "And anyway, it's not 
as though I'll never see Mum again, is it? When Harry expresses 
uncertainty, Luna continues: "Oh come on. You heard them, just 
behind the veil, didn't you? ... In that room with the archway. They 
were just lurking out of sight, that's all. You heard them." (pg. 
761)

Unfortunately I would not put it past JKR to drop this hint only to 
have it turn out to be one of Luna's loony ideas that comes to 
nothing. In which case Harry will be crushed yet again, having been 
twice thwarted in his quest to communicate with Sirius: via his 
ghost and via the 2 way mirror. JKR is cruel to Harry, but surely 
even she could not be that cruel. 

(Another digression: which of Luna's loony ideas has ever been 
proven to be crazy? We only have Hermione's snorts of derision and 
the scepticism of the rest of the school as "proof" that she has 
crazy ideas.)

Talisman:
> Harry sees Sirius hit and leaps down the steps (compare Neville 
> coming down 808) before Sirius, who is on the dais (804), falls 
> through he archway.(806) Remember how Dumbledore controlled 
Harry's fall to the Quidditch field in PoA? hmmmm. 
> 
> Moreover, Dumbledore is fast on the draw. (814) But he doesn't try 
> to shield/deflect Sirius from falling through the veil. 
> 
> Dumbledore is right by the dais. Dumbledore doesn't offer comfort 
> to Harry.
> 
> 
> 1. Dumbledore doesn't neutralize Bellatrix;
> 2. JK is coy about where crucial jet came from;
> 3. If Sirius just stunned, does Dumbledore "float" him
> through veil?;
> 4. Fast-draw Dumbledore doesn't try to save Sirius from 
> falling through veil;
> 5. Dumbledore doesn't comfort Harry.
> 
> VII Dumbledore is strangely inneffectual against Bellatrix, and 
> takes a long time to reveal himself in the M.O.M. lobby.
> 
> Harry has already been fighting Bellatrix for awhile, has 
clarified that the prophecy is broken, and Voldemort, having 
> Legilimened as much from Harry, has appeared, before Dumbledore 
> steps back in.  Another masterful manipulation.

Me:
Masterful manipulation or plotting? It doesn't matter that Harry is 
alone with Bellatrix and Big V for awhile; DD is there to save him 
in time from the AK curse. And it allows JKR to introduce a 
fascinating plot development: Harry's use of an unforgivable curse.

A comment on your use of the word nonchalantly (below). You put a 
negative spin on the term, but I wonder if DD appears that way 
because he is "a person who achieves the 'magic' of an actuated life 
(in a Mazlovian sense, and a journey that, happily, we can all take 
if we are brave & loving etc.)" (see your post 67142). I think DD 
models actuated behaviour all the time, but it is spectacularly 
evident in his duel with Big V and later in his office whilst Harry 
rages and storms about him. It is a trait that I think Luna shares 
and one that Harry might need to acquire in order to defeat Big V. 

Talisman:
> Now Dumbledore can test his theory. Dumbledore nonchalantly spars 
> with LV. Then, just when Harry thinks LV is gone, Dumbledore 
orders him to stay pinned under the statue guard, and 
> "[f]or the first time, Dumbledore sounded frightened." (815)

Me:
I think he's frightened for Harry because he cares about him and 
possibly because DD's powerless to help – there was nothing DD could 
do to Big V once he's entered Harry's body without harming Harry. 

"that I would sacrifice you in the hope of killing him." (pg 730) 

Harry has faced a lot of pain and difficulty before, but what he is 
about to experience is the worst so far. "Harry's scar burst open 
and he knew he was dead: it was pain beyond imagining, pain past 
endurance - " (pg. 719 and it goes on if you want to read it.) No 
wonder DD was frightened. 

Talisman:
> Why? Somehow (Legilimens?)Dumbledore knows LV is about to possess 
> Harry. Now he'll find out: 1) whether Harry can be used as a tool 
> of LV's; 2) whether Sirius was killed in vain.
> 
> The possesion is thwarted when Harry considers joining Sirius in 
> death, and "his heart fill[s] with emotion." (816)
> 
> *Here is the power the Dark Lord does not know. Activated
> 
> *Harry is a match for LV. Verification.
> 
> *Harry no longer cares about the petty, childish things of his 
> universe beore Sirius's death. He has further impetus for ending 
> VL's evil career: Preparation to receive the prophecy.
> 
> *Grieving Harry will be feeling the aching loss/love of Sirius for 
> years to come: LV can't stand to share those feelings: 
> Legilimens/Possession Reppellent.
> 
> *Sirius can't interfere with Dumbledore's "noble," heartless plan. 
> 
> How does Dumbledore know what thwarted LV's possession of Harry? 
> (844) How does he know what was in Harry's heart when LV was 
> banished? How can he say: "It was your heart that saved you[?]"
> 
> Yet he knows immediately. (816) And thereafter, he looks at Harry, 
> speaks to Harry and allows Harry to remain in his company.

Me:
The question in my mind is whether loving thoughts of Sirius are all 
that Harry could have summoned to send Big V scurrying. Why not 
thoughts of never seeing Ron or Hermione alive again? Just such 
thoughts were sufficient for him to conjure his Patronus in Ch 1 to 
repel the Dementors. "He was never going to see Ron and Hermione 
again – And their faces burst clearly into his mind as he fought for 
breath. 'EXPECTO PATRONUM!'" (pg. 22).

Say Sirius hadn't died. Would thoughts of never seeing him alive 
again have produced sufficient feelings of love to do the trick on 
Big V. What if one of Harry's friends had come running into the 
lobby and Harry had seen the look on their face as they watched him 
writhing in agony? Would that have helped him feel more strongly? 
Well, what if Ron or Hermione, or one of the other kids, had died 
instead of Sirius, during the fight with the DE's - one of them 
could easily have been murdered during those 5 pages that DD was 
absent. Would loving thoughts of a *dead* Ron have produced enough 
love to repel Big V? 

This is getting ridiculous – how much love is enough love to send 
Big V scurrying? What I am trying to show is that Harry could have 
felt the requisite emotion without anyone dying. What you assume is 
that DD assumed that only Sirius' death would do the trick and then 
killed him to test his assumption. 

 Talisman:
> 1. Dumbledore doesn't neutralize Bellatrix; (Me: he was 
preoccupied with rounding up escaping DE's)
> 2. JK is coy about where crucial jet came from; (Me: can't be sure 
what that vague text means, if anything.)
> 3. If Sirius just stunned, does Dumbledore "float" him
> through veil?; (Me: he wasn't stunned, he was dead so DD floated 
him through the veil so he would be around for Harry later)
> 4. Fast-draw Dumbledore doesn't try to save Sirius from 
> falling through veil; (Me: see 3. above)
> 5. Dumbledore doesn't comfort Harry. (Me: see 1. above)
> 6. Dumbledore manages the LV scene in lobby; (Me: all I read was 
that DD was trying to capture 'Tom' and not kill him, either because 
DD can't or won't. Why didn't DD try to kill Tom? Maybe because 
killing goes against his principles!)
> 7. Dumbledore knows LV going to possess Harry; (Me: He'd known for 
quite some time and had tried to prepare Harry with the Occlumency 
lessons. At the time of the actual possession, I don't believe there 
was anything DD could do to help Harry. 
> 8. Dumbledore knows Sirius love/grief thought repels LV; (Me: Yes 
he does, but were love/grief feelings of Sirius the only feelings 
that would have done the trick?)
> 9. Dumbledore gets: (Me: I prefer to see 9 a. to e. as *outcomes* 
of the fight rather than hypotheses that DD had worked out in 
advance and then subsequently managed the action – for over a year! -
 to test.)
> a. special power activation; (Me: Sirius death is not proven to be 
crucial to achieving power activation)
> b. chosen one verification; (Me: not proven, see below)
> c. Prophecy preparation; (Me: Harry was ready long ago. Sirius 
knew it on Harry's first night in Grimmauld Place.  I love your idea 
of one of the themes of OoP being about maturation from youth to 
adulthood (see your post 67142). DD's failure to recognise Harry's 
maturity is just a tragic working out of this theme.)
> d. LV repellent; (Me: You seem to imply that Harry is now 
permanently possession proof. Where is the evidence that the 
experience has had a permanent effect on Harry or that it will work 
again?) 
> e. no sirius interference. (Me: I think Sirius would have 
interfered with DD's plans if he and DD had disagreed on method. For 
example, Sirius might tell Harry about the prophesy because he's fed 
up with DD's delays. The outcome would have been the same – a Harry 
fit to fight Big V and withstand possession via Occlumency. I don't 
believe DD's plans ever included killing Sirius because DD is too 
moral for this. DD is supremely tolerant of differences and 
individuals. Hence the reason he puts up with Snape and Trelawny and 
employs an emancipated house elf and creatures that are scorned by 
many wizards: half-giants, werewolves, centaurs, vampires (Snape?). 

Me again: 
Regarding point 9b. above. There is no proof that Harry is the 
subject of the prophesy. "alexcukier" in message 66778 advanced the 
idea that Neville is the true subject of the prophesy. We don't know 
that he isn't, because as far as we know, Big V hasn't tried to kill 
him. What if Harry survived the AK curse with only a scar on his 
forehead, not because of the prophesy, but because of his mother's 
blood or love or sacrifice or whatever. The scar he got from the 
curse leaves him with magical connections to Big V, but that is just 
an outcome of surviving an AK curse. ("alexcukier" believes that DD 
put the scar on him after he survives, but I think that the link it 
creates to Big V shows that Big V made the mark.) 

If Neville were to survive the same curse from Big V, on his own, 
without protection from anyone or anything else, he would probably 
get a scar too, either similar or different. But he would be the 
one, not Harry!

It raises fascinating possibilities for the resolution of the 
series. Harry, the warrior hero who is not chosen by destiny, who is 
mistakenly spurred on by the belief that he is chosen, dies in the 
penultimate showdown with Big V. Big V and followers are triumphant, 
everyone else is in despair and then Neville steps up and blows him 
away! Or maybe Neville and/or Big V die in the final showdown 
leaving Harry to survive. (Oops! I just had a thought. Is this going 
over ground already covered in Decoy!Harry theories?) 

Talisman: 
> Oh, yes. Sirius had to die.

Me:
Oh did he just!

Well now that I'm done and I've read through what I've written I 
have to say that my post contains a lot more speculation than I 
thought I would need to rebut your arguments Talisman. Cést la vie. 
At least, I hope, I've shown that there are other interpretations 
possible. And the text does tempt one to speculate doesn't it? That 
fatal 'jet of light'! What is JKR thinking? (as she skips off the 
bank - laughing!)

Nicholas