OoP - GUILTY Dumbledore (was Dumbledore's true sorrow motives)

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 80038

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "talisman22457" 
<talisman22457 at y...> wrote:

> Evidence for the Prosecution:
> (All cites from OoP unless otherwise noted)
> 
> I. The Nature Of Lies is an important theme that informs OoP, 
> probably worthy of a separate post, but consider some 
examples:
<snipped>
>  6.) Dumbledore is the biggest liar of all. 
>  
>      Dumbledore has always been willing to lie, e.g. "It was only 
> when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore 
might  not have been quite truthful." (SS 214)
> 

In my tradition, a lie is  forbidden   if it is used to gain
something 
from another person that they would not be willing to give you 
otherwise. 

I don't know that Dumbledore thinks the same way, but you don't   
have to subscribe to any sort of "new" morality  in order to 
consider that there's a moral difference between fibbing about 
your desire for socks and lying after you have given your word to 
not to lie. 

 Dumbledore never promised that he would be telling Harry the 
whole truth in PS/SS, in fact he specifically said there were  
questions he could not  answer. The fact that the readers may be 
frustrated by Dumbledore's refusal to reveal more about his 
plans has nothing to do with whether Dumbledore is a moral 
person. Dumbledore did not ask Harry to believe that  he wasn't 
withholding anything relevant to the situation, so how does the 
fact that he did so violate Harry's trust?

*Harry*  accepts the judgement that there are things that he does 
not need to know. He may find it maddening, frustrating, baffling 
and ultimately impossible to keep his curiousity in bounds, but 
he never demands that Dumbledore, or anyone else, tell him any 
more than they think they should. 

 He does ask Snape "What's in the Department of Mysteries?" 
and many other questions, but he accepts that Snape is 
unwilling to answer some of them. Harry doesn't, for example, 
say that he is not going to study Occlumency untill  he gets a 
satisfactory explanation of what is going on. Instead, he 
childishly pretends that what he learns by stealth won't hurt him.

 Dumbledore's explanation, when we finally get it,  is necessarily 
obscure, but not because he wanted Harry to be a dupe.   No, 
Dumbledore doesn't state outright, "Voldemort knows I love you."  
Old school Brits don't find it easy to say stuff like that. And 
Rowling doesn't want him to say it because "I love you" are three 
of the corniest words you can write.

So Dumbledore tries to explain awkwardly that  "if" Voldemort 
knew about  the emotional connection between himself and 
Harry, he feared that Voldemort would exploit it. This is 
circumlocution; of *course* Voldemort knows about the 
connection, and always meant to exploit it.

Dumbledore doesn't explain, because Harry has already been 
told by Snape, that  he feared the  Dark Lord would gain  access 
to information in Harry's mind regardless.  But this is the reason 
that Dumbledore *couldn't*  write Harry a letter and explain the 
prophecy, or let McGonagall or anyone else make the 
explanations for him.  This is not speculation, it's right there in 
the text (533)

"The important thing is the Dark Lord is now aware that you are 
gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also 
deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to 
say, he has realized that he might be able to access your 
thoughts and feelings in return--"

This point  seems to have caused more confusion to readers of 
Phoenix than any other. 

Dumbledore's plan didn't depend on Harry being unhappy or 
ignorant. It  *did* depend on being able to keep information 
secret from Voldemort. Harry's isolation was a foreseen but 
incidental consequence of that. In much the same way, Sirius's 
unhappiness at Grimmauld Place was incidental,  an 
unavoidable consequence of the plan, not the essence of it.

 Once it was discovered that Harry had another way to banish 
Voldemort from his mind, Dumbledore was willing to tell Harry 
everything, and only sorry that his own mistakes had prevented 
him from doing so sooner. 

 Harry has been willing to sacrifice his own life to stop Voldemort  
since Book One, so why would Dumbledore think that Harry 
would be unwilling to carry out his role as a 'weapon' if it were 
explained to him? That cannot be the reason for Dumbledore's 
silence. On the contrary, Dumbledore knew that Harry would 
willingly shoulder the burden, and that, paradoxically, was the 
reason for his silence. Normal wizard kids dream of being a 
Quidditch player or a Tri-wizard champion or an Auror.  
Dumbledore wanted Harry to have that chance.

And why would Dumbledore think Sirius needed to die in order to 
give Harry a reason to resist the Dark Lord? Harry is already 
thoroughly motivated by the death of his parents.

It is Rowling, of course, who is ultimately responsible for Sirius's 
demise, and she killed him, IMO, not to give Harry a fresh reason 
to hate Voldemort, which he hardly needs, but to give Harry a 
new motive to hate Snape. 

I am sure it is absolutely essential for the plot that Snape and 
Harry do not reconcile too soon.  But Harry is getting to the age 
where he ought to  realize that Snape's bad manners are 
Snape's problem, not Harry's, and he also knows now that the 
emnity between his father and Snape was at least mutually 
deserved. By making Harry blame Snape for Sirius's death, 
Rowling creates new difficulties between them, and also handily 
reverses the situation she set up in Book One. Before, Snape's 
hatred of Harry was unjustified, now the shoe is on the other foot.


Talisman:
> (Small rant here where I say that consigning Harry to 10 years 
of  child-abuse has more to do with Dumbledore's discomfort at 
being  around someone he is "using" than the fact LV might 
come back in 10  years. (835)  In 10 years Harry is at Hogwarts 
and the "Petunia pact" only protects him a few months or weeks 
out of the year.) <

Huh? Dumbledore didn't know when Voldemort would come 
back.  Also, both Dumbledore and Voldemort speak  as though 
the protection applies to Voldemort's servants as well, many of 
whom are still at large and undetected.

>    1) Contrary to what I've seen posted in the OoPFaq, Snape 
NEVER  searches the forest.  Dumbledore merely "says" (if we 
can trust him) that Snape "intended" to search for Harry. (830) 
And, he only "intends" that after sending the OoP to the M.O.M.
> 
>       Why would Snape assume Harry was at M.O.M.?  Umbridge 
went  into the forest.  Umbridge remained in the forest until 
Dumbledore  fetched her.  Why wouldn't it be MUCH more likely 
that Harry was  being assailed by 
Umbridge/centaurs/giants/werewolves/spiders/etc. 
> when he didn't come out soon enough to suit Snape? <<

It would. That's why Snape intended to search for him there. But  
Harry told Snape that  "he" had Sirius at the place where it's 
hidden.  Snape knows what that means, and also that Voldemort 
has been trying to lure Harry into the Department of Mysteries for 
months.  But he also thinks that Umbridge has Harry well in 
hand, so it doesn't immediately occur to him that Harry is at the 
MoM.
> 
>  Snape has special ways of communicating with OoP 
members (830), surely that includes Dumbledore? Why is 
Dumbledore just a little too  late arriving at Grimmauld Place?  
Just after Sirius left. (831)<

Why should it include Dumbledore? That would be a security 
risk, especially with Dumbledore wanted by the MOM. We've 
often remarked on the list that The Dark Mark is a danger to the 
Death Eaters.

 You seem to be overlooking that Snape contacted the Order 
twice. The first time, immediately on leaving Umbridge's office, 
he ascertained that Sirius had not been captured. AFAWK, he did 
nothing further at that point. The last he saw, Umbridge had 
Potter and his idiot friends well in hand, so there's no reason for 
Snape to think that  Harry is in any position to run off to the 
Ministry. 

Snape is on probation, so he probably doesn't think it's a good 
idea for him to go back to Umbridge's office any time soon.  He 
probably doesn't realize that Harry and his pals have gone 
anywhere until somebody discovers the hexed students in 
Umbridge's office, and who knows how long that took.

 Then Snape would have to get them to the hospital wing and it's 
only after the IS are in some condition to be interrogated that 
Snape can learn that Harry and his friends got Umbridge to go to 
the forest. He still doesn't know that none of them have come 
back. 

The other Gryffindors wouldn't be very anxious to let Snape know 
that Harry and his friends were  AWOL, and nobody cares about 
Luna, so it probably takes Snape a while before he's sure that 
they're missing and not just hiding up in the castle somewhere.

Snape intends to go to the forest and look for them, but before 
doing that he realizes that Harry could very possibly have gone to 
the Ministry. So *then* he gets in touch with the Order again, and 
sends everybody but Sirius to rescue Harry. Now, since the 
Order goes at once to the Ministry, and presumably notifies 
Snape that Harry and his friends are there, Snape never needed 
to search the forest at all. 


> How long did it take to interrogate Kreacher (assuming that 
was even 
> necessary)?  Why is Dumbledore so tardy to the party? 
> 
> No matter, he behaves badly enough when he arrives.
> 
> V. Dumbledore's guilty behavior at the M.O.M.
> includes his late arrival (OoP been fighting for 5 pages). 
> 
> But, he dashes down the steps to the floor of the Death 
Chamber, and 
> almost instantly neutralizes the Death Eaters. (805)
> 
> Oddly, "[o]nly one couple were still battling." (805)  Bellatrix
and 
> Sirius.  Bellatrix misses (with what is apparently a stunning 
spell) 
> and then . . . JK drops to a new, one sentence paragraph, for 
the 
> crucial shot.
> 
> "The second jet of light hit him . . ."
> 
> The jet is the subject of the sentence.
> The person who fired the shot, and the color of the jet, are 
> mysteriously missing from the sentence. 

The after-image of a red light is green. If the second curse was 
fired in quick succession, it's possible you wouldn't be able to 
tell what color the second one was. 

Harry was looking at Sirius, so he didn't see Bella fire the shot. 
But why would Bella taunt Harry "I thought you had come to 
avenge my dear cousin," if she hadn't killed Sirius herself?

I don't read the description as Dumbledore instantly neutralized 
the Death Eaters. Dumbledore shows up and one of the DE's 
immediately tries to run. Dumbledore pulls him back. The DE's,  
except Bella, stop their duels, watching while Sirius and Bella 
battle. Then Sirius falls, and Lupin seizes Harry. 

The other DE's have not been rounded up yet. The flashes and 
bustling Harry sees could be  other Order members exchanging 
fire with Bella, her trying to keep Dumbledore from rounding up 
the other DE's, them still trying to escape, and finally Kingsley 
trying to continue Sirius's duel. 

> Harry sees Sirius hit and leaps down the steps (compare 
>Neville 
> coming down 808) before Sirius, who is on the dais (804), falls 
> through he archway.(806) Remember how Dumbledore 
>controlled Harry's  fall to the Quidditch field in PoA? hmmmm. 
<snip>
> 
> Moreover, Dumbledore is fast on the draw. (814)  But he 
doesn't try  to shield/deflect Sirius from falling through the veil. 
> 

It's not going to help if Sirius is already dead. 

> Dumbledore is right by the dais.  Dumbledore doesn't offer 
comfort  to Harry.

Er, he's got  Bella and the DE's to deal with, only "most" of whom 
are immobilized by invisible ropes.  Lupin has Harry safe until 
Harry breaks away. Dumbledore can't pursue Harry until he's 
rounded up the rest of the DE's and put the anti-apparition 
charms on them. That is presumably not the work of a moment. 
There are also Neville and four other children to be concerned 
about, one of whom is seriously injured. 

 Anyway, how the  !@#$ do you comfort somebody for the death 
of the closest thing to a parent they've ever known?

 Dumbledore wisely doesn't try, even later when Harry is in his 
office. He is  accepting of Harry's rage and grief, hard as it must 
be for him to watch Harry suffer. He only once shows how tough 
it is, when Harry finally challenges him about keeping Sirius 
locked up.

 As for Sirius, he was not confined against his will, or only to 
keep the MOM capturing him. It is clear from Draco's "dogging" 
remark that the Malfoys  were already aware that Sirius and Harry 
were close. That was in September, *long* before Kreacher's 
supposed betrayal. Dumbledore wanted Sirius safe so that the 
Death Eaters couldn't  use him as Harry-bait. Sirius would 
understand that it wasn't only his life at stake. 

In short,  I think it's a stretch to say that Dumbledore engineered 
Sirius's death or had anything to gain by it. I will allow that 
Dumbledore did do things that he knew would cause Harry to 
suffer. But I see no proof that he did this for any reason but the 
one he gave: to keep Harry and other innocent people alive.

The thing Dumbledore did which caused Harry to suffer most, 
delaying to teach him Occlumency, he did for the sake of Harry's 
comfort. If Dumbledore had known that all he had to do was let 
someone close to Harry  die in order to develop Harry's power, 
why would he have bothered having Snape teach Harry 
Occlumency in the first place? 

Assuming Dumbledore deliberately arranged Sirius's death puts 
more holes in the plot than it takes out, IMO.

Pippin