Legilimency, Occlumency, Snape, Harry

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 80098

Pip!Squeak wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79633 :

<< Harry is the one who obstructs the lessons as much as he can by 
the passive method of I-haven't-done-my-homework-Sir and the active 
method of breaking into the pensieve. >>

I just read that part last night (while waiting 6 Hours for a process 
to run on my PC), and to me it seemed that Harry's hatred of Snape 
and distrust of what Snape was doing was only Harry's *excuse* for 
not learning, that his real reason was he wanted to continue the 
dreams, because of his curiosity as to what was behind the door/in 
the room/in the glass sphere/in the Department of Mysteries.

OoP UK edition, one sentence on the bottom of p 508, rest on 509: 
"... he remembered that he was supposed to be empyting his mind of 
all emotion before he slept ... He tried for a moment or two, but 
the thought of Snape on top of memories of Umbridge merely increased 
his sense of grumbling resentment ... He dreamed ... when he left 
the room he found himself facing... a plain, black door. He walked 
towards it with a sense of mounting excitement. He had the strangest 
feeling that this time he was going to get lucky at last, and find 
the way to open it..." Then Ron's snore woke him up and he felt "a 
feeling of mingled disappointment and guilt. He kkew he should not 
have seen the door, but at the same time felt so consumed with 
curiosity about what was behind it ... "  P. 560, Harry is awakened 
from another such dream: "He felt as though a wonderful treat had 
been snatched from him at the very last moment ... he had got so 
close that time."

*Was* it Harry's curiosity, or was it Voldemort's curiosity? I was 
wondering that last night, well before reading these posts:
Jen Reese in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80031 
: << surely having LV and Snape poking around directly in his brain 
could produce an *undesirable* effect. The greatest Dark Sorcerer in 
the world rearranging your thoughts? Inserting ideas? His essence 
mingling with yours? Ugh--it's surprising Harry didn't act out more 
than he did.>>
and Sarah Mochajava in 
Http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/80049 :
<< And I do think that he was at times too angry because of his 
connection to Voldemort. (That's my theory.) I think this is where 
the prophecy comes in: Harry can't live as himself while Voldemort is 
around. Sort of like Voldemort's personality is invading Harry, and 
possibly vice versa. But, I don't think either realizes this. >>

Melpomene wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79712 :

<< Why would it enter Snape's mind that Potter was looking in that 
pensieve for information on James and Lily? Oh no, Potter wasn't 
looking for Potters, he was looking for more "Fun with Snivellus" and 
we all know it. >>

Sarah Mochajava in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79841 and
Geoff Bannnister in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79841 and
Salit slgazit in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79843 explained
(what I was going to explain) that Harry was looking for information 
about the Department of Mysteries. IMHO it was fairly irrational to 
think that there might be something about the D of M in Snape's 
Pensieve. Was Voldemort pushing him to look to see what memories it 
was that Snape wanted to hide away from the chance of Voldemort 
seeing via Harry, if Harry succeeded in breaking into Snape's mind? 

Melpomene wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79803 :

<< As to "But he never even told Ron and Hermione what he saw, now 
did he?" No, he didn't. But I'm absolutely SURE he would have done 
if Snape hadn't caught him in the act and thrown his tantrum. That 
scared him into silence. >>

It's as Elle wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79804 :
<<Harry did not tell Ron and Hermione what he saw in the pensieve 
because he was *ashamed* of his father and Sirius's behavior >> 
(and Sandy MsBeadsley in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79839
and Fred Uloth in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79931 )

P. 573 "He had no desire to return to Gryffindor Tower so early, nor 
to tell Ron and Hermone what he had just seen. What was making Harry 
feel so horrified and unhappy wass not being shouted out or having 
jars thrown at him; it was that he knew exactly how it felt to be 
humiliated in the middle of a circle of onlookers, knew exactly how 
Snape had felt as his father had taunted him, and that judging from 
what he had seen, his father had been every bit as arrogant as Snape 
had always told him."

Steve bboy_mn wrote 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79939 in: 

<< Let's look at what Legilimency really is in a practical sense. As 
far as I can see, it is hardly more than a highly accurate form of 
intuition. Voldemort or Dumbledore have a strong ituitive sense of 
when someone is lying based on subtle interpretations of their 
thoughts, emotions, and demeanor. Snape said it himself, that 
Legilimency is not 'mind reading' as the mind is not something which 
can be read; >>

I always get a (nasty) laugh from Snape saying that Legilimency is 
not mind reading. I don't even know Latin, and yet even I clearly see 
that Legi- means 'read' as in 'legible' and -Mency means 'mind' as in 
'mental'. Anyhow, Snape watching Harry's memories like they were 
movies is a great deal more than your suggestion of some highly 
insightful observation of 'body language' to tell when a person is 
lying.