Legilimency, Occlumency, Snape, Harry

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 80177

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" <jwcpgh at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
>
> > 
> > Legilimency takes two forms in the book. One is the gift or skill
> > of Legilimency and the other is the Legilimens charm.
> > 
> > It speculate that the Legilimens charm simply causes a cascade of
> > random memories .... edited...
> >
> > 
> > The gift or skill of Legilimens, on the other hand, is as deep 
> > strong psychic intuitive sense of a persons feelings, thoughts, 
> > and emotions at the moment. ....edited...
> > 
> > Just a thought.
> 

> Laura:
> 
> Your theory is interesting and I'm willing to be convinced, but 
> could you cite some canon to show which is which? ...edited...
>

bboy_mn:

I don't think it's necessary to cite the book to you if you have read
it. Although, I can and will do that if you really want me to.

We have two examples of types of Legilimency in the book which
demonstrate my theory. The first is Dumbledore's and other's
descriptions of the skill of Legilimency for detecting lies. Both
Voldemort and Dumbledore have this skill.

Then we have the Legilimency classes between Harry and Snape. The
examples of the Legilimens charm used in the classes don't seem to be
of much use for detecting lies. Snape casts the charm, the cascade of
random memories comes spilling out, and when Harry gets to a memory
that he doesn't want anyone to see, he forces the cascade to stop.
That is the only form that we see the Legilimen charm taking, and we
see it repeatedly. 

Like I said, the charm could give you some insight, but the examples
we see seem too random to really determine Harry thoughts, emotions,
and motivations at that given moment. Therefore, I conclude that some
general truth could be gathered, and attempts could be made to
reconstruct the viewed thoughts into something coherent, and thereby
hope to interpret it's meaning, but it all seems to random and
generalized to be used to determine if the words just spoken were true.

Now the gift or skill of Legilimency can be used to interpret truth,
therefore, the sensations, the intuitive sense that the Legilimist
divines must be more immediate and must be more specific. I base all
this not so much on text, but on a logical conclusion regarding what
must occur to accomplish the task at hand. 

We all have an intuitive sense to help us determine when people are
lying. We take our clues from many sources. A gifted Legilimist
abilities go far beyond common general intuition; it's not JUST a
suspicion or a hunch. As I said, a Legilimist, or Legilimizer, or
whatever you want to call him, is a Seer; someone gifted in a specific
form of Divination. Someone with a strong psychic sense. So the clues
that a Legilimist picks up go much much deeper that our common
suspicious muggle intuition. They are people who sense other people's
emotions and intent. In addition, in the process of detecting lies,
they may even be able to sense some degree of the truth.

We see the Legilimens charm repeatedly in the book, and it seems to be
just what I said it was. It forces a cascade of random memories, and
that doesn't seem at all effective in determining if someone is lying.

Since a Legilimist is able to detect lies, he must therefore be able
to see and feel more that a random cascage of memories. For me, the
logical conclusion is that the Legilimist has a deep strong intuitive
psychic sense of a persons emotions and intent at the moment the other
person is trying to perpetrate a lie. 

One last reminder that this skill goes far far deeper than common
muggle intuition. Also, I accept that not only are emotions and intent
sensed, but there may also be some mental images that accompany this,
but I suspect they are specific to the moment and are more of a visual
intuitive sense than actual images pulled from the other persons mind.  

I guess if intuitive psychic doesn't do it for you, you could look at
a Legilimist as a psychic empath. They have an empathic psychic
insight into the other person's thoughts, intent, and emotions, and
are therefore able to detect lies. 

Again, just a thought.

bboy_mn