Legilimency, Occlumency, Snape, Harry

[jwcpgh]

No: HPFGUIDX 80180

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > > Legilimency takes two forms in the book. One is the gift or 
skill of Legilimency and the other is the Legilimens charm.  It 
speculate that the Legilimens charm simply causes a cascade of
random memories .... edited...

> > > The gift or skill of Legilimens, on the other hand, is as deep 
> > > strong psychic intuitive sense of a persons feelings, thoughts, 
> > > and emotions at the moment. ....edited...
> > > 
> > > Just a thought.
> > 
> 
> > Laura:
> > 
> > Your theory is interesting and I'm willing to be convinced, but 
> > could you cite some canon to show which is which? ...edited...
> >
> 
> bboy_mn:
> 
> I don't think it's necessary to cite the book to you if you have 
read
> it. Although, I can and will do that if you really want me to.
> 
> We have two examples of types of Legilimency in the book which
> demonstrate my theory. The first is Dumbledore's and other's
> descriptions of the skill of Legilimency for detecting lies. Both
> Voldemort and Dumbledore have this skill.
> 
> Then we have the Legilimency classes between Harry and Snape. The
> examples of the Legilimens charm used in the classes don't seem to 
be
> of much use for detecting lies. Snape casts the charm, the cascade 
of
> random memories comes spilling out, and when Harry gets to a memory
> that he doesn't want anyone to see, he forces the cascade to stop.
> That is the only form that we see the Legilimen charm taking, and we
> see it repeatedly. 
> 
> Like I said, the charm could give you some insight, but the examples
> we see seem too random to really determine Harry thoughts, emotions,
> and motivations at that given moment. Therefore, I conclude that 
some
> general truth could be gathered, and attempts could be made to
> reconstruct the viewed thoughts into something coherent, and thereby
> hope to interpret it's meaning, but it all seems to random and
> generalized to be used to determine if the words just spoken were 
true.
> 
> Now the gift or skill of Legilimency can be used to interpret truth,
> therefore, the sensations, the intuitive sense that the Legilimist
> divines must be more immediate and must be more specific. I base all
> this not so much on text, but on a logical conclusion regarding what
> must occur to accomplish the task at hand. 
> 
> We all have an intuitive sense to help us determine when people are
> lying. We take our clues from many sources. A gifted Legilimist
> abilities go far beyond common general intuition; it's not JUST a
> suspicion or a hunch. As I said, a Legilimist, or Legilimizer, or
> whatever you want to call him, is a Seer; someone gifted in a 
specific
> form of Divination. Someone with a strong psychic sense. So the 
clues
> that a Legilimist picks up go much much deeper that our common
> suspicious muggle intuition. They are people who sense other 
people's
> emotions and intent. In addition, in the process of detecting lies,
> they may even be able to sense some degree of the truth.
> 
> We see the Legilimens charm repeatedly in the book, and it seems to 
be
> just what I said it was. It forces a cascade of random memories, and
> that doesn't seem at all effective in determining if someone is 
lying.
> 
> Since a Legilimist is able to detect lies, he must therefore be able
> to see and feel more that a random cascage of memories. For me, the
> logical conclusion is that the Legilimist has a deep strong 
intuitive
> psychic sense of a persons emotions and intent at the moment the 
other
> person is trying to perpetrate a lie. 
> 
> One last reminder that this skill goes far far deeper than common
> muggle intuition. Also, I accept that not only are emotions and 
intent
> sensed, but there may also be some mental images that accompany 
this,
> but I suspect they are specific to the moment and are more of a 
visual
> intuitive sense than actual images pulled from the other persons 
mind.  
> 
> I guess if intuitive psychic doesn't do it for you, you could look 
at
> a Legilimist as a psychic empath. They have an empathic psychic
> insight into the other person's thoughts, intent, and emotions, and
> are therefore able to detect lies. 
> 
> Again, just a thought.
> 


Laura:

A couple of questions (I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just 
clarifying your ideas in my mind):  it sounds like your first kind of 
Legilimency, the super-intuitive kind, might be something also found 
in the muggle world.  There are, after all, people who do seem to 
have an extraordinary ability to sense the feelings (if not precise 
thoughts) of others.  Now whether you would call this "magic" in the 
JKR sense or whether it is something else is another question.  Maybe 
some muggles have a bit of magic in them that they don't recognize as 
such.  :-)

But the other kind of Legilimency, the spell kind, seems rather 
pointless.  If all you can see is a bunch of jumbled images, I'm not 
sure what you can learn from using the charm.  I'd think you'd need 
both kinds to make sense of what you see as a result of the charm.  
If you don't have the intuitive ability, why bother to learn the 
spell?  Just to be able to do it?  I guess there would be people like 
that-Bertha Jorkins comes to mind, not that I'm suggesting she was a 
Legilimens, just that she was nosy.

When DD interrogated Kreachur about Sirius's whereabouts, he must 
have used the second kind of Legilimency.  Just getting a sense of 
Kreachur's emotions wouldn't have given DD the specific information 
he needed.  Right?

I still wonder why JKR would have used the same terminology for two 
rather different sets of skills.  She's usually very precise in her 
use of words.