Harry a Hero? Was: The magic power of love.

[slgazit]

No: HPFGUIDX 80498

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" <msbeadsley at y...> 
wrote:
[regarding H&R going to Lockhart in CoS]
> > Wouldn't you expect your kid to tell someone (you, the police, 
> > whoever) what he knows ?

Not if they thought they would get in trouble for it. Remember
that their knowledge (and at that point they did not *know* yet -
they just guessed) came by breaking school rules - brewing illegal
potions, going into the forbidden forest, etc. Don't forget that
they were on probation and had been told by no less than Dumbledore
himself (after the car incident) that any more rule breaking
would lead to their expulsion.

> > If he went and freed the kid on his own, 
> > wouldn't you lecture him about how irresponsible and stupid it 
was 
> > to go all alone, no matter how good a job he did, how heroic he 
is?

When they went to the bathroom they were not even sure that they
would find the entrance. They had a teacher (moreover the teacher
assigned to the task) with them, and they knew that any delay
can lead to Ginny's death. In fact, had they gone for help, by
the time they'd convince a teacher (if they succeeded), Ginny
would indeed be dead.

And lest you forget, the only one who could enter the Chamber of 
Secrets was Harry, as getting it opened required parseltongue (sp?).

> > > As for compassion, I don't think so. As I said before, he 
doesn't 
> > > care much about Ginny, it's more to do with playing the hero.

Ha? He cared very much for Ginny or he would not show the emotions
he showed ("Ginny, please don't be dead!"). He did not love her
romantically (heck, he was 12), but he did care for her. I don't
think he was playing the hero. Yes, he could have been a bit more
carefull and maybe one like you or me who grew up with adult
figures you could actually turn to for help - might have done that.
Harry grew up to only count on himself and not much even at Hogwarts
lead him to think that showing weakness and appealing to adults
would result in any kind of good outcome.

> Harry is not playing a role.  Harry is being Harry.  His self-image 
> *does* consist of being the only one in his world who can do the 
> things that (he thinks) need doing.  He spent ten of his first 
eleven 
> years with people who illustrated that to him daily:  injustice?  
> Nobody else cares, it's up to me; to save myself or anyone else, 
it's 
> all the same.  It's up to me.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[ being heroic ]
> > It's not a bad trait in itself. But it gets bad when it leads him 
> > to believe that he's a cut above others and that he can dispense 
> > with a healthy amount of caution and with listening to others' 
> > advice.

I have never seen him anywhere thinking that he is cut above others.
He continuously throughout the series is plagued with feelings of
inadequacy. He thinks the Sorting Hat would tell him he should
go back, he is surprised whenever he passes a test (note his
assessment of his OWL tests - thinking that *maybe* he passed on
tests where he clearly did well). During the Triwizard tournament
he repeats how the other champions are so much older, experienced
and fit for the job than he is. I could go on. The only time
when he explodes and lists his accomplishment (early in OoP) is
in context of feeling that they are being ignored and downplayed
and he is clearly acting out his frustration.
And those outbursts are short-lived,
immediately followed by self doubt and self reproach.
If anything he is too hard on himself (well, my 15 year old is
the same way, so it must be a 15-yo-boy thing... :-)).

What he does have is the strong belief that he has to rely on himself
only (a result of his abusive upbringing and unique life experience),
an enormous amount of courage and quick wits and the bad luck of
having everything important that happens in the Wizard World be
centered around him in some way or another.

> He goes careening into whatever's ahead, assuming 
> (so far correctly) that the borrowed time he is on will not run out 
> yet.

I don't think that is necessarily what leads him to act. It is more
the fact that the events that cause him to act were orchestrated
especially to that purpose. Hermione and Ginny were attacked in
CoS for the express purpose of getting him involved. In PoA, Sirius'
goal (aside from capturing Pettigrew) is to meet with Harry. A DE
put his name in the Triwizard tournament. He was lured to the MoM
on purpose. The point is that much wiser and stronger adults are
repeatedly manipulating him (whether it's Voldemort, Sirius,
Dumbledore, etc.), and he is as yet too young and inexperience to
act in the best possible way (that assuming there is a better way).

> > No, he showed that trait when he couldn't bring himself to kill 
> > Sirius that same night. But at least he tried, at least he hated 
> > Sirius, because Sirius was a strong opponent.

Are you suggesting that it would have been better if he had the
power to kill him? He did not because for one he is no
murderer, and I think because he was not 100% sure he was guilty
at that point.

> > But Harry felt only 
> > disgust for Peter, he didn't hate him, because he didn't feel he 
> > was a worthy opponent.

No, he did not want Lupin and Sirius to be murderers and he wanted -
for once - to let the authorities handle the punishment. The result
only reinforced his perception that adult authorities are corrupt
and unjust (ignoring his testimony that Sirius was innocent and
that Pettigrew was alive and guilty). Earlier you said that Harry's
fault is not appealing to autority figures for help - that was
what he was trying to accomplish here, and look what a mess it
ended up being.

> > Moreover, do you realize that once again he showed complete 
> > disrespect for others' feelings ? Because he, Harry, didn't care 
> > enough about Peter to kill him, he wouldn't allow Sirius and 
Remus 
> > to choose for themselves whether or not they wanted to kill him.

No. They let him make the decision and respected him for it.

> > > I think the idea that Jo is trying to present is that heroes 
are 
> > > normal people who manage to act extraordinary in the midst of 
> > > extraordinary events.

Yes and no. I think that she tries to convey that a person's value
is determined by his choices, convictions and willingness to follow
through with them. Being able to do so honorably in the face of
enormous hurdles and obstacles, and being faced with challenges
that noone else had, is what makes Harry exceptional.

> > He just has good opportunities to 
> > make use of his talents, a cold head, good wits and reflexes, and 
a 
> > great deal of luck. He's good, but he's not exceptional.

Maybe we just did not read the same books... :-)

Cool head, good wits and reflexes helped him. But he also has a
lot of magical talent (see his DADA skills, Patronus, etc.), a high
intelligence (he has figured out quite a few things on his own,
even if he may have been given help sometimes), lots of courage
and quick thinking. He had luck, but that alone would not have
lead him to defeat Riddle and the basilisk, to scare off 100
dementors, win the Triwizard tournament, survive Voldemort or
the DE's in the MoM. Just think how any other student from the
books (incl. Hermione, Ron or others) would have coped in similar
situations. In fact, where there were other students with him
(Hermione, Ron, Neville, Cedric, etc.) they all faired worse.

> > You know, Malfoy is a Hero too. Not for you and I, but if our 
> > values were the same as his, we'd worship him for his daring 
> > attitude, his cunning, his knowledge, his perseverance, etc...

Ha? In that case, why go for little Malfoy? Voldemort is all that
and a lot more...

I don't "worship" Harry but I certainly have a lot of respect
and admiration for him. This is not to say that I agree with
everything he does or thinks, I just give respect where it's due.

Salit