Harry a Hero? Was: The magic power of love.

[Doriane]

No: HPFGUIDX 80538

"slgazit" wrote:

> > > Wouldn't you expect your kid to tell someone (you, the police, 
> > > whoever) what he knows ?
> 
> Not if they thought they would get in trouble for it. Remember
> that their knowledge (and at that point they did not *know* yet -
> they just guessed) came by breaking school rules - brewing illegal
> potions, going into the forbidden forest, etc. Don't forget that
> they were on probation and had been told by no less than Dumbledore
> himself (after the car incident) that any more rule breaking
> would lead to their expulsion.

But just the year before, he was saying that school rules, expulsion 
and stuff like that, don't matter anymore when a matter of life and 
death is at stake... Still I get your point. Especially since the 
only one who could teach Harry to turn to adults for help when needed 
is DD, and he won't do that, because he wants Harry to rely on 
himself only.


> Ha? He cared very much for Ginny or he would not show the emotions
> he showed ("Ginny, please don't be dead!").

Not convincing to me. Reminds me of when I go "Please let it not be 
broken !" when I drop a valuable and fragile object. I don't care 
about the thing itself, just about what its being broken would mean 
to me. In Harry's case, he doesn't want Ginny to be dead both because 
it'd be a sad thing of course, but also because it would mean he's 
failed in trying to save her.

> maybe one like you or me who grew up with adult
> figures you could actually turn to for help - might have done that.
> Harry grew up to only count on himself and not much even at Hogwarts
> lead him to think that showing weakness and appealing to adults
> would result in any kind of good outcome.

If I may say so, you have no idea what kind of environment I grew up 
in. In fact I grew up thinking and feeling like I had to take care of 
myself emotionally, like I wasn't allowed to be weak, I *had* to be 
strong, I'd better not let my emotions (whether pleasure, pain, hurt, 
fear...) show or someone would use them against me, etc... I didn't 
have it as bad as Harry, all right, but no I didn't grow up among 
adult figures I could turn to for help. Quite the opposite in fact. 
And now that I think of it, I'm not sure I'd have done much 
differently than Harry... Ouch !! I'm bringing my whole point down 
myself !!

> I have never seen him anywhere thinking that he is cut above others.
> He continuously throughout the series is plagued with feelings of
> inadequacy. He thinks the Sorting Hat would tell him he should
> go back, he is surprised whenever he passes a test (note his
> assessment of his OWL tests - thinking that *maybe* he passed on
> tests where he clearly did well). During the Triwizard tournament
> he repeats how the other champions are so much older, experienced
> and fit for the job than he is. I could go on. The only time
> when he explodes and lists his accomplishment (early in OoP) is
> in context of feeling that they are being ignored and downplayed
> and he is clearly acting out his frustration.
> And those outbursts are short-lived,
> immediately followed by self doubt and self reproach.
> If anything he is too hard on himself (well, my 15 year old is
> the same way, so it must be a 15-yo-boy thing... :-)).

Do you notice the pattern here ? Harry is afraid of not doing well in 
school or in competition, because he knows others can be just as good 
as he is. But when it comes to saving the world, he's not afraid of 
taking on the whole task on his own, because he's intimately 
convinced that he's the best there is, that nobody can do as well as 
he. Look how reticent he was about bringing Neville, Luna and Ginny 
along to the DoM : he knew they weren't as good as he for the job, so 
why bother ?
But I am aware, of course, that he knows he's the only one who could 
defeat LV. That's bound to distort anyone's self-image.

> What he does have is the strong belief that he has to rely on 
> himself only

Only when it comes to saving-the-world. He doesn't mind asking for 
help from Hermione where school or competition is concerned.

> I don't think that is necessarily what leads him to act. It is more
> the fact that the events that cause him to act were orchestrated
> especially to that purpose. Hermione and Ginny were attacked in
> CoS for the express purpose of getting him involved. In PoA, Sirius'
> goal (aside from capturing Pettigrew) is to meet with Harry. A DE
> put his name in the Triwizard tournament. He was lured to the MoM
> on purpose. The point is that much wiser and stronger adults are
> repeatedly manipulating him (whether it's Voldemort, Sirius,
> Dumbledore, etc.), and he is as yet too young and inexperience to
> act in the best possible way (that assuming there is a better way).

Quite true. It's the lot of all kids, to be manipulated one way or 
another by adults around them, but those manipulating Harry have 
particularly bad intentions in doing so.

> > > No, he showed that trait when he couldn't bring himself to kill 
> > > Sirius that same night. But at least he tried, at least he 
> > > hated Sirius, because Sirius was a strong opponent.
> 
> Are you suggesting that it would have been better if he had the
> power to kill him?

?? He did have the power to kill him. Or at least he *thought* so, 
though we know he couldn't have killed Sirius with magic (what spell 
to use ?) But he chose not to.

> No, he did not want Lupin and Sirius to be murderers

It wasn't his choice to make, but I understand his wish.

> and he wanted - for once - to let the authorities handle the 
> punishment.

And get Sirius officially cleared of all charges ! *That* was the 
main reason he wanted to hand Peter to the authorities for.

> The result only reinforced his perception that adult authorities 
> are corrupt and unjust (ignoring his testimony that Sirius was 
> innocent and that Pettigrew was alive and guilty). Earlier you said 
> that Harry's fault is not appealing to autority figures for help - 
> that was what he was trying to accomplish here, and look what a 
> mess it ended up being.

He didn't intend to ask for help. Quite the opposite actually. He 
intended to demonstrate to the authorities that they had been wrong 
all along but that thanks to him and his friends, they were now able 
to correct their mistake. That's not asking for help.

> Yes and no. I think that she tries to convey that a person's value
> is determined by his choices, convictions and willingness to follow
> through with them. Being able to do so honorably in the face of
> enormous hurdles and obstacles, and being faced with challenges
> that noone else had, is what makes Harry exceptional.

Hermione does that too, but somehow she doesn't strike me as being 
presented as a hero. She's deeply convinced she's acting right in 
everything she does, whether it's working hard in school, or setting 
up SPEW, but she comes through as a silly foolish girl who doesn't 
get her priorities right. So why Harry and not Hermione, not Neville, 
not Luna or Ginny ? They are all doing exactly the same, more or 
less. As for the "being faced with challenges that noone else had", 
remember how it was when you were a kid and a teen : deep inside, you 
were convinced that noone, ever, had been through the trials you were 
facing. I felt that way, even when I read or heard of other people 
who had experienced the very same things as I was living : it just 
wasn't the same, it was somehow worse for me.

> Maybe we just did not read the same books... :-)

Nah :-) We just didn't read them the same way.

> Cool head, good wits and reflexes helped him. But he also has a
> lot of magical talent (see his DADA skills, Patronus, etc.),

I'll state it once again : I don't see that his DADA skills are so 
exceptional. So he practiced the Patronus Charm for months and he 
finally managed it ? Not such a big deal. So he practiced additional 
charms and hexes with Hermione for the Triwizard Tournament, so that 
now he knows more than the other kids ? Again, what's the deal here ? 
So what DADA skills, what magical talents, are you talking about ? 
He's got a fair amount of it, all right, but not exceptionally much 
as far as I can see.

> a high intelligence (he has figured out quite a few things on his 
> own, even if he may have been given help sometimes),

He's intelligent, sure, but not overly brilliant.

> lots of courage

In the heat of fire, yes. But when it comes to planned events, he's 
just as afraid as anyone : he was almost fainting with fear before 
the first task of the Tournament.

> and quick thinking.

Quick thinking is about the only thing that really puts him apart 
from most other kids.

> He had luck, but that alone would not have lead him to defeat 
> Riddle and the basilisk,

No, but he *was* lucky that Fawkes was there to turn the Basilisk 
blind. He *was* lucky that his sword went through the roof of the 
mouth of the Basilisk as he intended it too, *and* that he wasn't 
killed instantly while doing it. *And* also that the Basilisk tooth 
tore off. Though I'll admit I would never in a million years have 
thought of using it to destroy the Diary :-)

> to scare off 100 dementors,

As I said earlier, he *knew* he was going to manage it, and he'd 
practiced the spell a hundred times, and he couldn't feel the 
Dementors' influence from where he was, and he had a very strong 
motivation to succeed this time, so it wasn't such a hard thing to do 
anymore. Now if he'd managed to scare them off the first time around, 
then I'd have been convinced that this boy is something special 
indeed.

> win the Triwizard tournament,

He did get a lot of help on that one, and Cedric did just as well as 
he did.

> survive Voldemort or the DE's in the MoM.

The others managed that too.

> Just think how any other student from the
> books (incl. Hermione, Ron or others) would have coped in similar
> situations. In fact, where there were other students with him
> (Hermione, Ron, Neville, Cedric, etc.) they all faired worse.

Hermione tends to lose her head in tense situations. But she still 
does very well most of the time. In the MoM, she was taken by 
surprise : she didn't think a spell could still work if you can't say 
it out loud.
Ron : he's got what it takes, but he can't decide what he wants 
most : fame or comfort.
Neville : he's clumsy, just like Tonks, and he was brought up 
thinking he was no good. But he did very well in the DoM.
Cedric : he did just as well as Harry, but he had no luck, LV didn't 
need him. Had LV decided to kill Harry first, he could not have done 
anything to prevent it. Cedric literally didn't see his death coming, 
so what could he do to prevent it ?
So you see, all those students could do just as well as Harry in most 
cases, but they are not the ones LV is interested in, so they are not 
the ones who are manipulated into those situations. And they 
sometimes lack Harry's insolent luck.

> > > You know, Malfoy is a Hero too. Not for you and I, but if our 
> > > values were the same as his, we'd worship him for his daring 
> > > attitude, his cunning, his knowledge, his perseverance, etc...
> 
> Ha? In that case, why go for little Malfoy? Voldemort is all that
> and a lot more...

Oh, but I *do* have a lot of respect for Voldemort. He made morally 
wrong choices, but other than that he's admirable. So much work, so 
much endurance, so much determination... But of course, if I got a 
chance to rid the world of him, I'd do it right away. Whaddayamean, 
he's not for real ??? ;-)

> I don't "worship" Harry but I certainly have a lot of respect
> and admiration for him. This is not to say that I agree with
> everything he does or thinks, I just give respect where it's due.

I do too. I'm just annoyed that he's given so much more respect than 
any other character in the books, when so many other characters 
deserve at least as much respect as he does, and could be just as 
good heroes as Harry, if they were the ones the bad stuff was 
happening to.

Del