Reaction to MAGIC DISHWASHER (TBAY INTRO)

[boyd_smythe]

No: HPFGUIDX 81099

I am definitely enjoying this thread--and while I do not agree with 
this latest incarnation of MD, I admit I also cannot fully disprove it 
through canon. But, hey, I'll try anyway, since BADD ANGST is clearly 
the sturdiest structure around. More to come on that in future 
posts, I'm sure. ;)

> Pip!Squeak:
> No, it's part of MD. Or you might see it more clearly if you think 
of it as part of the Spying Game, rather than the potion bit. This 
part of the theory could be subtitled `Why we fight'. <

OK, you're still MD, fine. :) I just didn't know whether you thought 
(as Tom suggested) that the heart of MD was in its interpretation of 
very specific events or the assumption that DD was plotting and 
planning out of view until OOP. Obviously the latter, which was always 
the most intriguing aspect to me, as well. And, again, kudos on that 
being correct!

> Pip!Squeak:
> If I had to make a prediction about Book Six, it will be that this 
will be the book that will see the Mysterious Agendas finally out in 
the open. The `dishwasher phase' will end (though it may be very close 
to the end of book 6). <

Again, we're in general agreement. Although I could also see JKR 
simply having everyone acting in the open in 6&7 without explaining 
what was going on in the background before. Hopefully, she'll drop at 
least a few clues for us!

> Pip!Squeak:
> I think that like Jen you are getting confused between `imposing 
views' and `forcing people to make a choice'. Dumbledore is *not* 
forcing his views on people. He is forcing them to recognise that a 
choice must be made. If those who believe in choice face those who 
believe in no choice, what do you do? <

OK, here we part ways just as before. I understand the distinction 
between imposing and forcing people to face a choice. Honest. I simply 
don't think that DD is doing *either*. IMO he is only defending 
himself and the WW against a force that removes people's choices 
(including his own) by killing them if they don't serve him.

If I may speak metaphorically, you think he's stoking a fire to force 
others to see it and decide to put it out. I think he's simply trying 
to put it out. Period. I think he'd do it by himself if he could. But 
for reasons we don't yet fully understand, Harry is necessary. And he 
needs some help primarily for information-gathering, so he can thwart 
LV's subversive efforts. I don't believe there is any canon that 
explicitly states that he is trying to do anything more than just 
destroy LV.

> Pip!Squeak:
> Yup. He respects their right to make a choice.  However, the WW has 
chosen to ignore the return of Voldemort. Does he respect that choice? 
Or does he make his own choice about the best route to follow?
> The MoM chooses to arrest him, as they legally can do. Does he 
respect that boundary? Or does he impose his belief that ` I can think 
of a whole host of things I would rather be doing' [OOP Ch. 27 p.546 ] 
by attacking law enforcement officers and the political head of the UK 
WW and departing via Phoenix Airlines? <

So he's trying to keep LV from getting too strong. What are some good 
ways he can do that? Get the MoM to recognize that LV is back, so they 
can arrest his DEs and protect the WW; that's why he lures LV to the 
MoM. Also, he needs to be available for the fight, so when the MoM 
tries to arrest him on charges that are patently stupid (even if 
technically legal), he refuses. Besides, they have infringed on his 
ability to make choices, not he theirs. Yes I realize that any 
criminal could say the same thing, but in the Potterverse JKR makes it 
clear that we are to think DD is good and knows more than the MoM.

> Pip!Squeak:
> The thing about choices is that they often conflict. Respecting the 
> boundaries of those who respect your boundaries is a virtue. 
> Respecting the boundaries of those who impose their views on others 
> is not. 

Good, so we agree!


> Remnant::
> My view, this is just saying that DD needs to destroy Riddle's soul 
so he never comes back again. <
<then> 
> Pip!Squeak:
> ::Blinks:: There we do have a philosophical difference, because to 
me destroying a person's soul, however evil they may be and whatever 
crimes they have committed, would make Dumbledore the most evil of 
Evil!Dumbledores. <

I'm simply saying that killing LV's body did not defeat him before, so 
DD needs to truly destroy him now. Whether that means destroying his 
soul, making him see the wrong of his ways (that'd be big and bangy!), 
or merging with Harry or something has not yet been canonized.

OK, on to the most serious matters.

> Pip!Squeak:
> **Yellow flag violations**
> 
> A `yellow flag violation' is a speculative theory based in 
> significant part on anything that is not canonical. 
> 
> Remnant:
> You've changed these way past their initial intent. Nearly a yellow 
> flag.
> 
> Pip!Squeak:
> I'm not sure that the first part you quote (where I add my own 
> comments in the square brackets) is a yellow flag violation. 
> Firstly, I say what I'm doing. Secondly I give the reference to the 
> original quote. People can then decide for themselves whether my 
> interpretation is the correct one. 
> 
> Secondly, the quote 'any means to achieve their ends' [PS/SS Ch. 7 
> p.88] is a direct quote from the Sorting Hat's description of 
> Slytherin, which (so Hagrid says) Voldemort went to. 

That's why I called them *nearly* yellow flags. I did feel you misled 
our audience a bit by quoting phrases and changing their 
context/intent substantially. Attributing them is good, but might also 
make our audience think that their 'enhanced' intent is canon. That's 
why I thought about yellow flags. I did *not* throw them. Frankly, I'm 
too much a neophyte to do that, anyway. And just for clarification, 
the Sorting Hat's quote was, as you say, not about future dark lords, 
but Slytherins. Again, I know you pointed this out, but moving their 
context/intent isn't helping your cause, IMHO.

> Pip!Squeak: Well, even the muggle born Hermione doesn't announce 
> that she hopes not to get put in Slytherin. [PS/SS Ch. 6 p.79-80] 
> Perhaps the books she's read don't suggest anything is wrong with 
> Slytherin House? Perhaps the people she's been asking don't think 
> anything is wrong with Slytherin? <
> 
> Remnant: No canon here at all.
> 
> Pip!Squeak:
> Uh, I thought there was a reference to  [PS/SS Ch. 6 p.79-80]? That 
> sounds like canon to me. ;-)
> 
> The exact quote is:
> `Do either of you know which House you'll be in? I've been asking 
> round and I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best, I 
> hear Dumbledore himself was one, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be 
> too bad
'
> 
> So, no mention from Muggle born Hermione that she wants to avoid 
> Slytherin House. 
> 
> People *not* mentioning something is often more revealing than 
> mentioning it. The entire LOLLIPOPS theory has been built on Snape 
> *not* mentioning Lily Evans.
> 
> So they're not yellow flag violations. 

My apologies. I still think it's a big stretch to say that on our 
first day at Hogwarts, having muggle-born Hermione *not* mention 
Slytherin's relative qualities implies that Slyth does not have 
negative connotations.

> Remnant:
> OOP could have just been named after Fawkes, for all we know.
> 
> Pip!Squeak:
> Uh, yeah. It could.
> 
> Do you know who `Fawkes' is probably named after?
> 
> Guy Fawkes (or Guido Fawkes), who on 5th November 1605 attempted to 
> blow up the English Parliament, together with much of the 
government.
> 
> Still think I'm wrong about Dumbledore?
> 
> Pip!Squeak

I'll say it again, *great* post. Like the best, it can be neither 
proven nor disproven, only debated. As for Fawkes, he's probably a 
hero of JKR's, since she's clearly somewhat anti-establishment. That 
does not, however, mean that Dumbledore's goal is te overthrow of the 
WW government as we know it.

'Til next time!

-Remnant
"Tripe, Sybill?"