Canon for BADD ANGST (Re: Spying Game Philosophy - The Phoenix must die!

[msbeadsley]

No: HPFGUIDX 81149

> Jen Reese:
> (T)the above explanation doesn't take into account the canon that 
> Dumbledore *attempted* to work within the political reality of the 
> WW in the beginning, and that he *does* abide by a system of rules, 
> albeit ancient ones that aren't always promoted by the MOM (POA and 
> GOF, US versions):

If Dumbledore *is* playing according to a big, bangy end game 
philosophy, he can't show it early on; he has to "be reasonable." I 
can find no canon to deny that.

> POA p. 66: "Dumbledore isn't fond of the Azkaban guards," said Mr. 
> Weasley heavily. "Nor am I, if it comes to that....but when you're 
> dealing with a Wizard like Black {i.e., at that time considered  
> LV's second in command}, *you sometimes have to join forces with  
> those you'd rather avoid.*"

But Mr. Weasley isn't quoting Dumbledore. He is attributing to him 
a "reasonable" philosophy, either out of what he thinks Dumbledore 
believes, or what he has been told to say.

> Emphasis mine. Isn't that DD's philosophy in a nutshell? Battle 
> against Evil is a compromise at best--sometimes you have to give a 
> little to get a little. DD doesn't want to have to deal with the 
> Dementors, but he also has a desire to keep his students safe and 
> see Black back in Azkaban. He's working within the system of the 
> current WW.

I see Dumbledore accepting the dementors as part of his "be 
reasonable" act; the Ministry believes in them as a deterrent and 
Dumbledore allows them to be foisted (not hoisted, you!) on himself 
and Hogwarts and what happens? By the end of PoA *everybody* knows 
what a "deterrent" they turned out to be. Veerrrrrry clever, huh?

> p. 707, "Voldemort has returned," Dumbledore repeated. "If you 
> accept that fact straight-away, Fudge, and take the necessary 
> measures, we may still be able to save the situation."

(I wonder now if Dumbledore endorsed Fudge as MoM; everybody *wanted* 
Dumbledore.) Does Dumbledore know Fudge so well (and it seems to me 
he does) that he says this almost as a private joke to himself, or 
one on Fudge? Besides, I can see Dumbledore as willing to work within 
the system and Dumbledore who is bringing about the end by fire 
easily as attributes of the same man; Dumbledore is like a yoga (no, 
not Yoda!) master: infinitely flexible, but with very clear results 
in mind.

> POA p. 426, Dumbledore: "Hasn't your experience with the time-
> turner taught you anything, Harry? The consequences of our actions 
> are always so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future 
> is very difficult indeed....."

Yes, and that's why Dumbledore is so flexible; he knows this, that 
the future is a beast to be ridden, hanging on sometimes by your 
fingernails, and other times reined in the direction you want it to 
go (like leading H/H to use the timeturner). IMO, none of this 
damages Apocalypse!Dumbledore.

> Once again, philosophy in a nutshell: We can plan all we want, but 
> time and choices constantly change, and thus we have to change with 
> them. DD does not sound like someone who thinks he can rid the 
> world of all evil!

Who said that? Who said Dumbledore thought he could rid the world of 
evil? I think he is simply orchestrating an unavoidable example for 
everyone of the need to change society in such a way (like by 
splitting up power between wizards and other entities, like goblins) 
that no single evil can never get quite so bloated again.

<snip stuff I can't see as obstructive or counter to new MD>

> Even an Evil wizard like Pettigrew is held accountable by his life-
> debt.

It exists, it has an effect we will see later, but it doesn't get the 
WW's road to hell-in-a-handbasket off the hook it's hanging on (as 
illustrated by Pettigrew's actions in the graveyard). If Dumbledore 
knows enough about "magic at its most impenetrable" to make that 
statement, he may also know it well enough to be following a most 
impenetrable magic of his own.

<snip actual canon, leaving summary>
> DD's philosopy at work--Dumbledore isn't happy Harry's name came 
> out of the cup. Undoubtedly he's worried about him. But Harry is 
> allowed to compete because DD works within the boundaries of a 
> deeper mystery than his own agenda--a binding magical contract.

Dumbledore wants Harry to survive his fourth year, wants him alive to 
face Voldemort, whenever it happens. Dumbledore may *be* bending to 
magic's rules himself here. But again, if he understands magic's 
mysteries better than anyone else (as canon profligately implies), he 
may be better at navigating its "boundaries" than anyone else in the 
WW. What if Dumbledore's agenda *is* the epitome of the laws which 
make magic work? Some law of magicodynamics? Oh, oh, what if it's 
*circular*: the uberest-wizard has the most power, and the most power 
over the people, and what magic consists of is what it is defined by 
in the collective unconscious? (How META would y'all like to get?))

Sandy (who got an email apology (!) yesterday from that 13-year old 
Southern Baptist from Dallas and will soon post about it on OT 
Chatter; having obtained said 13-year old's permission, of course)