Jewish Goblins?

[jwcpgh]

No: HPFGUIDX 81450

hpfanmatt at g... writes:
> 
<snip> The point, as I read it, is not that the Goblins are supposed 
to *represent* Jews, but that the *discrimination* against the 
Goblins is reminiscent of a certain brand of anti-Semitism -- 
demonizing (goblinizing?) an entire group because some members are 
successful in business or, particularly, in finance.<snip> 
In this sense, EnsTren's point is similar to the prior thread 
discussing how various brands of "otherness" in the books can be 
analogized to the otherness felt by members of the gay/lesbian 
community (see post # 77983 and its progeny).  Neither claim requires 
JKR to have intended any precise symmetry, much less that she 
have "indulged in" a stereotype.  But, given the prevalence of 
prejudice and discrimination as themes in the books, it is rather 
difficult to believe that Rowling does not intend us to draw *any* 
connection to prejudices in the real world. <snip>

Nemi:
<snip>
> In the middle ages and afterwards Jews were not allowed to own land 
and certain bussinesses.  So in order to make enough money to survive 
they became bankers and money lenders.
> 
> My thought was what if due to the Goblin rebellions we hear so much 
about if a same sort of ban was placed upon the Goblins?
> 
> After WWI Germany had to pay off depts, like really huge fines for 
the whole country because they had allied against the rest of europe.
> 
> My second thought was what if the Goblins had a simular fine on 
them, leading they to be more sensitive than usual to their 
galleons.  And getting very angry when it's stolen out from under 
them presumablely from the MoM.

> I believe two Jews /Were/ incharge of the goverment, you best ask 
Martha about that though as she has her fact straighters than I.  
*hugs martha*  I had been refering to the Weimer goverment though.

Laura:

Sigh.  I must say that the timing on this discussion is most 
unfortunate, coming 3 days before the celebration of the New Year and 
the succeeding holidays.  

I agree that JKR is trying to make a point about prejudice in the 
RW.  She does so most effectively without having to resort to 
caricatures.  Nemi is suggesting (if I'm reading the posts correctly) 
that the goblins, due to their money-handling ability and the wary 
distance wizards keep from them, are reminiscent of the Jews in 
Europe.  Matt suggests that this is part of JKR's anti-prejudice 
subtext which reminded some readers of anti-gay prejudice in the RW. 
The comparison would be correct if JKR had included a character with 
stereotypical gay or lesbian traits but had not identified that 
character as such.  (Whatever stereotypical gay or lesbian traits are-
men knowing all the words to all the songs in "The Wizard of Oz"?  
women wearing flannel shirts and Doc Martens? *rolls eyes*)

If JKR had wanted to suggest that the goblins were in charge of 
Gringotts as punishment for their rebellions (which sounds pretty 
unlikely, don't you think?  Why would the WW penalize 
insurrectionists by putting them in charge of the only bank in the 
country?  Seems a bit...disingenuous, to say the very least.), I 
believe she would have done so, but left out any descriptions that 
could lead to the type of conclusion to which Nemi has come.  That 
is, she wouldn't have made them ugly, clever with money and lacking 
in basic social skills.   I would respectfully suggest that the 
reading Nemi and Matt propose is both overly simplistic and overly 
specific.

I want to be clear, Nemi, that although I find your theory 
unconvincing, I truly don't think you meant to be hurtful.  I hope 
I've responded to your post without rancor-that's certainly what I 
meant to do.  I hope you continue to post here and take part in the 
discussion!

As for Matt, I think you're doing a disservice to JKR if you think 
she would try to make a valid point in such an insensitive way.  If 
she had created a magical race with stereotyped characteristics of 
African-Americans, Asians, Arabs or gays or lesbians, her readers 
would have jumped on her, and deservedly so.  She is, I believe, 
addressing bigotry in general and not any sort in particular.  I 
think that because of the way she portrays prejudice-she shows it 
from the point of view of the holder of the prejudiced belief rather 
than the victims of the beliefs.  We don't get inside the heads of 
centaurs, giants, goblins or house-elves, although we see something 
of how they feel about wizards and witches.  JKR wants to show us way 
a society built on ethnic/racial stereotypes works (or doesn't). To 
the extent that we see victims of prejudice in the WW as having 
specific equivalents in the RW, I think that's our reading in and not 
JKR's intention.

A couple of corrections:
The Jews became moneylenders not as punishment per se but because 
Christian theology prevented Christians from engaging in this 
practice.  Jewish understanding of the morality of lending at 
interest is different from the traditional Christian one.  The 
prohibitions imposed on the Jews regarding engaging in various 
professions could, I suppose, be seen as a punishment-the crimes 
being deicide and refusing to see the error of their ways. But it 
wasn't direct and particular punishment for a direct and particular 
act, such as Nemi suggests with the goblins and their rebellions.  
The anti-Jewish prohibitions grew over time, starting when the Roman 
Empire became Christian and proceeding from there.

There has never been any time, to my knowledge, that the head of any 
German government before WWII was Jewish.