Harry and the lack of information (was : poor Molly ?)
delwynmarch
delwynmarch at yahoo.com
Wed Apr 14 13:20:00 UTC 2004
No: HPFGUIDX 95923
> Del:
> > So what ? Elite fighting units don't get told everything that's
> > going on, from international diplomacy to internal state of
> > affairs. They are just told what they need to know.
Sienna :
> I think it's safe to say that enough evidence was presented to us
> at the end of OotP to prove that Dumbledore cares about Harry in
> more ways than as just a soldier.
Del :
That's even precisely the reason he didn't tell Harry more... Maybe
DD should have been more cold-hearted towards Harry, since it would
have allowed him to tell Harry everything without a second thought.
Right ?
Sienna :
> This is a very cold view to take by the way... Harry is not part
> of an elite fighting unit and while the war might involve many
> people, the ultimate confrontation will involve only Harry and
> Voldemort.
Del :
We don't know that. Just because Harry is the one who has the power
to vanquish LV doesn't mean it's all going to end up in a duel.
There are many possibilities, and Harry fighting LV is only one of
them. For example, it could very well be that Harry will be the only
one who can go and retrieve some specific weapon somewhere (Heir of
Gryffindor, anyone ?), or it could be that Harry will be the one to
think of a specific potion to melt LV into inexistence, or maybe
Wormtail will do all the job out of his life-debt towards Harry, or
it could be that Harry will learn more about Tom Riddle and be
shocked at the similarities in their stories and take compassion on
Tom and feed that compassion through the scar-link and thus destroy
LV's anger (one of my pet theories :-), etc... None of those
theories require Harry to ever meet LV again.
Sienna :
> Harry will ultimately have to be in charge of his own destiny.
Del :
Just because my kid will ultimately have to be in charge of his own
destiny doesn't mean I'm going to let him do whatever he wants,
without offering any guidance or help. Kids *always* end up as
masters of their own lives, but the whole point of being a parent is
that you try and teach them what you think they are going to need,
and you do your best to avoid their doing anything overly stupid or
dangerous. Otherwise, you're not a parent, just a Dursley.
Sienna :
> Molly won't be able to protect him and I think we've seen enough
> to say that nobody has ever really been able to protect Harry from
> Voldemort when it counted.
Del :
In PS/SS, Harry was saved from LV by Snape, Firenze, and his
mother's blood. In CoS, he was saved by Fawkes. In PoA, he didn't
get to fight LV. In GoF, he was saved by his wand and some ghosts.
In OoP, he was saved by DD. Seems to me that contrary to what you're
saying, Harry needs to gather as much help as he can. I'm not saying
Harry didn't do most of the job himself, but we can't say he did it
all on his own, because he didn't.
Sienna :
> If DD had told Harry about the prophecy, told Harry that Voldemort
> wanted to know about this prophecy, told Harry that only he or
> Voldemort could take the prophecy from the DoM, then Harry might
> not have gone to the DoM at all.
Del :
I disagree completely. First because DD could not tell Harry
*everything* about the Prophecy, not as long as Harry's mind was not
secure from LV anyway. Second, because if Harry had known that DD
was holding something back from him, he could very well have gone
straight to the DoM to get his hands on the Prophecy. In any case,
there's no assurance that Harry would have acted any better. And
moreover, after seeing Sirius being tortured, Harry would have gone
to the DoM anyway, even if he knew it could very well be a trap. I'm
of the opinion that it wouldn't have changed much if Harry had been
told about the Prophecy.
> Del:
> > Harry is the most valuable weapon in the
> > weaponry, but he's most definitely not the only one.
Sienna :
> Ultimately, he is the only one who counts. Like I said, the
> ultimate confrontation will involve only two people - Harry Potter
> and Tom Riddle.
Del :
And like I said, we simply don't know that. Just because DD said the
Prophecy means "kill or be killed" doesn't mean it is so. Moreover,
what's the use of a dead weapon ? Harry needs to stay alive until
the final battle, and he will need all the help he can get to stay
alive.
> Del:
> > The Good Side
> > has got many other weapons, and Harry doesn't need to know about
> > those. This is a *team* effort, and Harry has to learn to act
> > like a good soldier, not like a general.
Sienna :
> Dumbledore is the general but even Dumbledore admitted that
> ultimately it'll be all up to Harry. Don't you find that at all
> telling?
Del :
Nope :-) I don't believe everything DD says. I believe DD knows what
Harry wants to hear, and he tells him so. The Prophecy does say that
Harry has a power that LV doesn't know, but why should I believe DD
when he says that this power is the one that is contained in that
room in the DoM ? It could be, but maybe DD made that all up to prop
Harry's courage up, and to make Harry feel safer.
Sienna :
> Harry is not an army recruit... he is a 15 year old boy. Teenagers
> don't react well to being kept in the dark and ordered around like
> mindless mushrooms. It's no wonder he lost the plot in OotP.
Del :
It's the way it most often happens. I know a lot of things were kept
from me when I was a teenager, and I know I keep lots of things from
the teenagers I know. Simply because teenagers very often don't have
what it takes to understand some issues. They too often think in
black and white, they too often think they know better than anyone
else, they too often think their opinions matter more than anyone
else's, etc... It's typical teenage stuff, but it makes talking to
them about certain things very difficult. And considering the way
Harry just can't restrain himself from blabbing to Umbridge any time
she gets him worked up, I understand that DD doesn't want to tell
him anything important about the *secret* business of the *secret
and outlaw* Order of the Phoenix.
> Del:
> > Harry was told again and again how important it was for him to
> > learn some skills, and yet he didn't apply himself because he
> > didn't know why he had to do it, so he felt it wasn't important.
Sienna :
> A typical teenage response and one that could have been avoided by
> Dumbledore telling him about the prophecy.
Del :
It might be typical, but it's not a good thing in times of war.
Moreover, let me ask you : what *exactly* would you have told Harry
if you had been DD ? Because no matter how I think of it, I always
come up with the same conclusion : it was still better not to tell
him anything than to tell him a little bit of something.
> >Del:
> > Said who ?
Sienna :
> It's just my opinion, but I think most in the wizarding world
> would agree.
Del :
Not true. Up to the end of OoP, most in the WW think that DD has
gone senile. And even then, Sirius at least thinks that DD has no
right deciding about Harry's life single-handedly.
Sienna :
> The key to this is looking at why Dumbledore didn't tell Harry.
> He didn't NOT tell him for some larger strategic reason, he openly
> admitted that he cared about him too much to place the burden on
> him... that he cared more about what was good for Harry than about
> all the people that he might be condeming to death in the future.
> I trust Dumbledore's judgement... I think Harry should have been
> told.
Del :
You said earlier that I'm cold-hearted, but what about telling an 11-
year-old abused orphan who's just found some kind of home that in
order to live he will have to kill the very powerful lunatic who
killed his parents ? And since we're talking teenage psychology,
what do you think this would have done to Harry ? Do you think he
would have tied friendships, do you think he would have allowed
himself a little romance, do you think he would have enjoyed a
little fun, do you think he would have enrolled in the Quidditch
team ? I think not. Harry's life isn't fun the way it is, but it
would have been much much worse if he had been told the truth. Not
to mention that Harry is hot-headed, and he could have tried doing
some very stupid things.
Sienna :
> Harry responded to his experience and experience told him that any
> time in the past when he had 'seen' things in visions or dreams,
> they were true. Why would he suddenly think otherwise?
Del :
Harry's experience should also have told him that Hermione is rarely
wrong...
Sienna :
> He could have (and should have) told him about the prophecy, as he
> himself admitted.
Del :
I ask again : what exactly should DD have told Harry ?
Del
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