LV's and Harry's wands -Wands vs Wizards Dueling

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 95966

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" 

<saraandra at s...> wrote:
> snip
> > > Surely Lord Voldythingy's next move is to obtain a different 
> > > wand? 
> > > ...edited...
> > > Then he might face Harry's wand with impunity (or as much as any
> > > Dark Lord who's going to lose can).
> > > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria
> > 
> > bboy_mn:
> > 
> > I can only assume that you are refering to the 'Brother Wand
> > Effect', but you must realize that that only occurs under very 
> > specific conditions; conditions with require split-second timing.
> > 
> > Voldemort and Harry are quite capable of cursing each other with 
> > their existing wands. In fact, Voldemort curses Harry near the end
> > of GoF WHILE Harry is holding his own wand, and the curse works 
> > just fine. ...
> > 
> > The problem occurs when both wizards cast curses simultaniously,
> > AND those curses collide in the air. 
> > 
> > That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
> > 
> > bboy_mn
> 


> AmanitaMuscaria again:
>  - If we are to believe Dumbledore ..., he just  says, '"They will 
> not work properly against each other" ... "If, however, the owners 
> of the wands force the wands to do battle ... a very rare effect 
> will take place"'
>
> I read that as Voldie can use his wand on Harry, Harry can use his 
> wand on Voldie, but if they both use their wands, but not 
> necessarily at the same instant, the 'rare effect' will happen. 


bboy_mn responds:
First off, I can't say that you are wrong and I am right, all I can do
is give you my impression and show you what I based that impression on.

You say Harry can curse Voldie, and Voldie can curse Harry, but they
can't curse each other with out the 'Brother Effect' occuring
(paraphrased). 

But the only thing that creates a distinction between Voldie curses
Harry and Harry curses Voldie, and they curse each other is time.
Harry throws a curse, no problem. One minute later Voldie throws a
curse, no problem. Now they each throw a curse 30 seconds apart, still
no problem. Now 15 seconds apart, no problem. So exactly where do we
make the transition from them each throwing a curse to them BOTH
throwing a curse. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Where is the line drawn between them EACH being able to curse the
other, but them NOT BOTH being able to curse? I conclude the
distinction occurs when the time gap between the curses comes very
close to zero (although not absolute zero). 

I think the duel between Draco and Harry where their curse struck each
other in mid-air and bounced off hitting bystanders was JKR's step up
to introduce this concept to us. She introduce a unique event where
the powers being channeled through the wands meet and that power,
regardless of the actual spell, created a shield that deflected the
other curse. The difference is, that these curses didn't meet head-on,
instead, in order to create the ricochet, they met at a slight angle.
That's not stated in the book, but is a reasonable conclusion.


> AmanitaMuscaria continues:
>
> DD doesn't say it's the spells meeting, but that it's the wands 
> being forced to work against each other. Which rather indicates 
> wands are semi-sentient, agreeing with 'the wand chooses the 
> wizard'. I wonder if there are  wands who refuse to work with some 
> wizards?
> 
> So I still reckon Voldethingy would be better off getting another 
> wand.
> 
> Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria


bboy_mn:

D'dore doesn't say the spells meet, that's true, but people never
speak in absolutes. Fictional and real people always generalize and
summarize, because if we all spoke with absolute precision, the art of
conversation would be impossible. Attempts at such, would be cluttered
with aside, clarification, tangents, and overwhelming detail to the
point where no one would ever be able to get to the point. So, we
generalize, we summaries, we condense in the name of 'getting to the
point'. At the point were D'dore spoke he was attempting to make a
point to Sirius that was tangental to his conversation with Harry.
That was not the time or place to stop his conversation with Harry and
give Sirius a long detailed two hour lecture on the finer points of
unusual wand effects.

Back to the 'simultaneous sheild effect'. We have two incidences where
spells cast from dueling wands create an unusual effect. The first is
Harry and Draco outside the potions classroom which I believe was
there to introduce the basic concept, and the final 'Brother Effect'
curse between Harry and Voldemort. Regardless of what D'dore says,
these examples tell us more. The actual events carry more details than
D'dore's short three line summary.

Now I make the distinction between wizards dueling and 'Wands
Dueling'. In the Harry/Draco event, the force being channeled through
the wands meets nearly head-on, and we find that those forces are not
able to penetrate each other. In most duels, these channeled force
pass each other in the air as the travel toward their wizard target.
These forces may skim each other along the edges, perhaps even overlap
to a very limited extent, but when they come in significant contact
with each other, they meet a substantial opposing force. 

It might help to picture wizard dueling with firehoses where the flow
of water represents the flow of magic from the wands. Not a perfect
analogy, but helpful. The opposing forces are able to deflect and
affect each other. 

Again, the point I am trying to get at here, is the distinction
between wizards dueling, and wands dueling. When two wizards duel, the
wizards are the opposing forces the meet on the battle field. But when
the curses collide with each other, it becomes the magical forces
being channel through the wands that are 'meeting' each other, and
this last situation, dueling wands, is what triggers various possible
wand effects like the Brother Wand Effect.

This has to be a rare occurance given that precise timing and angle
required. Even in the Harry/Draco example, the angle of impact had to
be slightly off for the ricochets to occur the way they did. If Harry
and Draco's curses had met head-on, I suspect we would have seem some
special wand effect, but not the Brother Effect. 

I speculate that all the sensations that Harry was feeling in his own
wand were only incidental to the Brother Effect. Those same or similar
sensations may have occurred in the Harry/Draco situation if the
timing and angle had been slightly different. 

In a sense, what Harry felt from his wand in the Harry/Voldie event,
was not Voldie curse or force presenting itself in Harry's wand, but
Harry's own force rebounding or recoiling back into his own wand.

This isn't explained in the books in detail, and JKR doesn't
specifically say it in any interview, but I think given the evidence
of actual events that occur in the book and reasonable extention of
those event, make this a reasonable conclusion to reach.

So, that IS my story, and I AM sticking to it. Of course, it's a story
comprised mostly of fiction, but I say, reasonable fiction.

Then again....?

bboy_mn