DD: an appreciation (Was Re: Snape, A Murderer?)

[a_reader2003]

No: HPFGUIDX 95988

Kneasy, sorry for the delay in replying to this, a little local 
difficulty with Mrs Weasley cropped up... I have re-ordered the post  
to try and make a coherent set of points. Still thinking about the 
Mirror of Erised.

>
Carolyn originally wrote:
The whole plot makes a lot more sense if you agree with the theory 
that DD is simply the current incarnation, and leader of the forces 
for 'good', and Harry is the one who will have to pick up that baton 
eventually ...(snip)
>

Kneasy replied:
(snip)
There is a possibility that HP is just an episode in a centuries long
battle between good and evil, as you also point out, and that DD and
Voldy may be re-incarnated manifestations of the original combatants
(Gryffindor? Slytherin?) that return to fight again and again
generation after generation. This could make Harry very small beer
indeed, a transient character in a long running saga.
(snip about the founders)

I admit that I've never really thought of Harry as DD's successor,
(though that is a possibility), more as a possible means to actually
destroy the source of evil, which in my musings is based in the 
Chamber
of Secrets. If true this would be the final showdown, Ragnarok in
suburbia.
(snip)

More fanciful ideas from Kneasy's fevered imagination. Grindelwald was
defeated in 1945, 50 years before the HP saga. Tom's diary was written
50 years before Harry read it.
Is there a connection?
Did Tom become the next re-incarnation of evil at the defeat of
Grindelwald? Did entering the Chamber make him the next candidate?
Perhaps now you can see why I'm so interested in the 'possession'
theme.
(snip)

Hogwarts seems to be the centre, the nexus of the conflict. It's the
Chamber! The Chamber, I tell you!

Sure, there's holes in the theory, but when has that ever stopped a
committed if paranoid poster?

Carolyn now:
But who would you see Dumbledore re-incarnated as in this scenario ? 
It would appear he can't come back as himself exactly, some other 
person has to appear (with Godric or Slytherin, or Merlin etc as 
previous holders of the post perhaps). And does he start again as a 
baby or does he rebirth as an adult ?  It was this problem which made 
me think of Harry as his nominated successor, and would explain his 
ruthless protection, and odd love for the boy, whom he must die for 
at some point.

OTO, I could definitely buy the theory that Tom Riddle took over the 
evil mantle from Grindewald - the dates all fit, and I agree that 
this would suggest a possession-method of re-incarnation, as Tom was 
aged 19 in 1945. So could Harry get to possess Dumbledore in the same 
way when the time comes?

And why would Riddle's possession have to take place in the Chamber? 
Might have misunderstood you here, but surely Tom could just have got 
in there and learnt all about it at the feet of the master, Salazar, 
whilst he was in his 5th year, and then made sure he was in the right 
place at the right time in Germany (if Grindewald was currently 
possessing Hitler at that point, as many have suggested). There is 
certainly an uncomfortable similarity between Voldemort's ravings 
about the virtues of pure-bloods when he isn't one himself, and 
Hitler's own background.

As to how Dumbledore got to Germany to fight Grindewald- well, 
apparating covers it doesn't it ? It seems almost instantaneous and 
possible over that distance ? Old Dippet doesn't seem the sort to 
make a big fuss over one of his teachers being away at short notice 
and coming back a bit battered. Perhaps he could cover by teaching 
transfiguration himself if necessary ? 

>
Carolyn originally wrote (about the chance of administering 
everlasting 'good'):
I think it was no accident that DD sought out Nicholas Flamel
when he was younger, and worked with him on the Philosopher's Stone. 
DD
was as tempted as Voldy in his own way (snip)..
>

Kneasy replied:
Again a possibility, but I was wondering when *Harry* is going to be
tempted; he is the putative hero after all and he is in a situation
that he doesn't like. He wants out. He is vulnerable to seductive
whispers from someone who is well-meaning on the surface but inimical
beneath.

DD's temptation would have to be played as a reminiscence; Harry's we
could experience in real time. Before OoP I'd slotted Sirius into the
tempter role, now I'll have to find someone else. Damn.

Carolyn again:
I don't think he is going to be tempted in the sense you describe - 
ie just to get the hell out of this nutcase situation. He is still 
fuelled by a burning anger about avenging his parents, increased now 
by added grief about Sirius. He has had a nasty shock to his trust in 
Dumbledore, and is more likely to hatch some scheme of his own to 
find out the truth on some pressing questions - like what really 
happened at Godric's Hollow. Maybe he will confront Petunia, and she 
will reveal some startling detail about Lily.

Lupin and Tonks are the most likely people he would confide in over 
the summer, other than Ron and Hermione. Tonks is a bit of wildcat - 
she might just think he had a right to go haring off on some mission 
of his own, and help him (can't imagine her being as careful about 
Harry as Molly). Lupin may be equally consumed with grief about 
Sirius (or he may have murdered him), and in any event has a poor 
history of being honest with Dumbledore. He may be ESE!, as many have 
speculated; he may be equally interested in finding out about 
Godric's Hollow for a whole variety of other reasons, which I know 
you will be able to invent without difficulty (!).

Whatever, Harry's escapade will inevitably end with another dangerous 
confrontation with Voldie and more tears before bedtime. Perhaps this 
is the point where Dumbledore reveals to Harry the re-incarnation 
aspect of his destiny, and promptly dies in the shoot-out, leaving 
our hero to literally pick up the pieces ?

>
Carolyn originally wrote:
I think JKR's solution will involve some rapprochement between the two
worlds (if only from the WW POV), and some way of getting round a
simple good/evil clash, because its an endless battle and she couldn't
really suggest evil can be overcome for good - not in today's 
political
climate.
>

Kneasy:
Hmm. Sorry, but JKR (in the recent webcast) said that "the breach was
final" which is a pretty unequivocal statement and doesn't allow for
much manipulation.
(snip)

Carolyn now:
Yeah, I know, that's why I said it would be from the WW POV. Somehow, 
they have to get to grips with their muggle-hatred, which is a cancer 
destroying their society. Even Ron has grasped the fact that they 
will die out if they don't inter-marry with muggles. Voldie has only 
got into the position he has through the support of racist aristo 
families like Malfoy and the Blacks. The parallels with British 
society before the WW1 are too obvious to be ignored IMO, especially 
given the possible Grindewald/Hitler connection.

My original point was that there could not be a final defeat of evil, 
because that is not credible - evil will always exist to be fought by 
the forces of good, because the two forces are facts of human nature. 
Harry will undoubtedly be victorious, but probably it will be a 
pyrhhic victory in many respects.

However, because of the views held by Voldie and his DE's, one 
outcome of the final showdown might be a change in the way the WW 
views muggles (and other species which they look down on).  'Muggle-
loving disgraces' like Arthur will gradually be able to introduce new 
laws about these relationships as a result.

And, whatever she says about the breach being final, there is 
definite canon that not only is the MoM in touch with the British 
prime minister, but numerous muggle parents know all about the WW. We 
don't have an explanation of how all that works - Vernon and Petunia 
certainly don't seem to be suffering from memory charms, for a start.

Carolyn, goes off muttering 'Vauxhall Rd, Vauxhall Rd'  <g>.